Finger precision and coordination problems

[VKat]

To a guitarist this doesn't seem right, but it appears there is some truth in it. I suppose you are constantly putting energy into the string with the bow, so it doesn't need a 'hard' end point, unlike the guitar, where the string is freely vibrating. I'm not sure you would 'never' push it all the way down. E.g. I found this advice: 'The general rule about left hand finger pressure is to use as little pressure as necessary to get the tone you want in pitch and color. That may mean that at times, especially in the higher positions, you don't have to press the string all the way down to the fingerboard. At other times it may mean that you do press the string down to the fingerboard.'
String Height and Finger Pressure. - The Fingerboard - Maestronet Forums

My wife plays the violin (she did the ABRSM grades when she was at school) and she had never heard of this. She tried it out just now, and while the upper notes still sounded, they were not as full as when she pressed right down. On the lower notes, it didn't work very well. But then she has never practised this approach, so it may take some getting used to.

I'm not an expert in violin playing (even less then in guitar playing) and I have very limited experience with violin but what you say makes sense.
What I'd like to emphasize is that in order to accept or deny this statement about pushing the string all the way down or not doing that we need to define this condition more clearly but that's not always possible.
However, if you watched the video with Prof. Fitzpatrick above there is at least one clear test that can identify the string not being pushed all the way down: when you can slip a piece of paper under your finger.
What thickness paper? Newspaper?

[VKat]

Great post Johan! I enjoyed reading it. Thank you as well for taking your time.
I'll only comment on one thing that you asked me, to save the space:

From yur posts I did not really understand what exactly you want to achieve... you want take up guitar and play any scale up/down fluently? you want to noodle through improvized changes? you want to play through certain song?

Good question. Of course that would be a very silly goal to become a 'fluent scale player'. "Look guys - I'll shred a scale for you! - Are you impressed now?"

My idea is to be able 'in the end' to be a fluent all around player.
I want to be able to:
- play chord changes; record them and then
- play a solo over the loop
or just
- play chord melody

...but having that distant(?) goal in mind I never feel quite ready to proceed from a technical part on to real musical part. I always feel this way: "OK, I 'know' these arpeggio shapes but still haven't mastered them... or... I still don't know these arpeggio forms".
That's some kind of mental trap I guess. The constant feeling of incompleteness.

For some reason when I'm trying to get into the 'songs playing mode' I begin to fear that I may lose my not so well shaped technical skills including scales and arps.

I agree with you - maybe it would be more practical to concentrate on a song and apply all my skills in context but so far I haven't been able to concentrate on this task. Maybe I need to force myself but then I get back to my original post: I'm not good at following plans.

However after reading all that I just wrote I can recommend myself only one thing: if you (me) don't "force" yourself to switch into "the song playing mode" you'll never play songs and you'll always be a "scale player" which is sad.
Making an excuse such as "it contradicts my personality" won't work any longer because in that case I'll be deceiving myself. You either do or you don't.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Well, I can learn the chord progression as well but when I try to proceed to the chord-melody part, I feel that I don't have enough "chops" to play it smoothly and I return to practicing chords and scales.

I'd have to challenge your notion that you have to have advanced chops to play some chord melody. You can play a simple chord melody in the same way that you can comp simply or play a simple solo. I'm sure that I do all 3 in a pretty amateur way, but the chord melody stuff is my favorite.

I'd recommend Robert Conti's Chord Melody Assembly Line book/DVD. It's a very simple and straight forward "how to" on creating chord melody from a lead sheet etc. You can continue to develop complexity as you build chord vocabulary and knowledge, but it's a great starting point. For me personally, that simple, inexpensive book was the best money I ever spent in jazz instructional material.

Nothing beats playing a self-contained tune, solo, even if it's very simple at the start.

[grahambop]

I want to be able to:
- play chord changes; record them and then
- play a solo over the loop
or just
- play chord melody

Then short-cut the process. Find an example of what you want to play, and copy it.

What's your favourite tune? Whose chord-melody version of it do you like? Whose solo do you like on that tune? Copy it. Try and copy some of their chord voicings. If it's too hard, simplify it a bit, or skip the hard bits.

When I started, I wanted to play like Wes Montgomery and Joe Pass. So I just copied a few of their simplest phrases and kept playing around with them. Some of their lines were too hard for me to play, so I just altered them a bit. Everything else just gradually developed from that.

I never understand why people get so bogged down with scales, exercises etc. for ages, when really they want to play the music. Start by copying the music you want to play. Exercises and theory can be added in along the way. Every time you copy something, you learn from it and you get better.

[VKat]

Everyone: Thank you very much for ALL your suggestions, comments and useful recommendations.
I'm off to make a new plan on learning tunes/solos/chord-melodies.
I hope then when I wake up tomorrow and look at this new plan I won't ask myself a question: "What is it all about?", but most likely I will and then I'll refer myself back to this great thread where that question is answered in-depth!

Feel free to add more comments if you want to continue the discussion but I feel that you already answered all my questions and even more.

[edh]

@Vkat, we tend to play what is familiar to us. If all you play is scales it's because that's what you are comfortable and familiar to you. You need to push the boundary.

Disclaimer - I suck!

[ecj]

Man, this thread bums me out, because I'm pretty sure I could help VKat get over this problem in an afternoon of working on his mechanics.

Post a video, man. We'll all be able to help. I 100% guarantee that you just need some coaching about proper hand position and which motions/muscles to utilize for your mechanics.

Once you take care of that stuff, the fun comes.

[VKat]

...
Post a video, man. We'll all be able to help. ...

Good idea! I'm not sure if I can implement this easily but what else can I say? - "I'll try..."
Video with scales? -
Let me learn one chord melody from one of my 100 books

[ecj]

Good idea! I'm not sure if I can implement this easily but what else can I say? - "I'll try..."
Video with scales? -
Let me learn one chord melody from one of my 100 books

Go simple. Do a video where you play a scale really slowly, then progressively faster until your technique breaks down.

Then play something with chords so we can see how you strum.

If you want to do chord/melody for fun, do it!

[VKat]

Did I mention that I play everything fingerstyle? I don't use a pick. For scales I use thumb for the low strings and either the index and middle or the middler and ring fingers for the treble strings. Sometimes on the way back the D-string is played with the fingers for some reason. It somewhat difficult to coordinate transition in "faster" tempos from the treble strings to the low strings with changing fingers to thumb.

For everything else (any kind of oulines and arps) I use the combination of the thumb and three fingers and it's pretty difficult to set exact rules for every situation but there is 'one rule of thumb' - my thumb never goes on the treble strings while fingers sometimes can travel 'up' to the "low" D string.

With this technique it's impossible to play very fast lines by definition so at some point I'll make a mistake.

What else bothers me: on a typical electric guitar the strings spacing is quite compressed and it's difficult to apply the fingerstyle techniques in the classical manner because of the small space between strings when the fingers often hit the upper string with the free stroke.

This is just for the information - I have no problems with that.

-------------------------------- So please read below my real problem ------------------------------------

However I feel that I'm failing more on the left hand technique untill I'm warmed-up. What that means: say, I've just picked up a guitar. I set my index finger on a fret and I try to land my pinky 3 frets up the neck (1-|-|-4) and... I often hit the space in between the strings - I literally miss the string (if I don't watch the fretboard from above). On the next try I'll most likely land on the string with my pinky. Once the initial try-out is complete, I begin to 'feel' the proper string locations and don't miss strings. Maybe once in awhile.

So, to give you a correct impression - my problem is not with speed. Can you see now?

Or let me give you another example. Say, I play some chord and I haven't played it for sometime. Usually it's a drop 2+3 Major in the Root position on the sixth string or its inversion with the 5th in bass. If I haven't played these chords for couple days I can often miss the shape on the first try, especially with the latter chord. After couple attempts I begin to feel the correct shape and don't make that mistake so often.
I played these chords 1000 times each.

If you transfer this problem into repertoire you can understand that if I know a piece well - any piece, say a chord melody and I try to play it right off the bat after picking up a guitar - my first 5 minutes will go into all kinds of adjustments until my fingers begin to feel the guitar well and I finally can really begin to play something.

That's the core of my problem - I can't really play anything untill I'm warmed up for at least 20 minutes.
I hope you can see the difference between: begin to play something and really play anything.

With this I return to the beginning of this thread where in my original post I explained (or tried to explain) what was and is my real problem. It's not with being stuck in scales or arpeggions which I'm not - it's about inability to play a guitar right after picking it up without 20 minutes of initial "warm-up".

This may sound like not a big problem but it is.
Why? Because I often see people who can do just the opposite - walk into the room (or a music store), pick-up a guitar and play.

Maybe - that's just what it is? In that case my initial post is worth nothing - it's just a mear complaint of a dissatisfied man.
Or yeah baby, let's play that 'Missing the strings blues' once I'm warmed-up...

Go simple. Do a video where you play a scale really slowly, then progressively faster until your technique breaks down.

Then play something with chords so we can see how you strum.

If you want to do chord/melody for fun, do it!

[Jonah]

with posting video - I would suggest something that you feel comroftable with - s othat you do not think much of technique - and something integral like a short song or a chorus where there is even simple artistic ides.. not just scale...

[VKat]

Yes, got it.

with posting video - I would suggest something that you feel comroftable with - s othat you do not think much of technique - and something integral like a short song or a chorus where there is even simple artistic ides.. not just scale...

[Jonah]

That's the core of my problem - I can't really play anything untill I'm warmed up for at least 20 minutes.
I hope you can see the difference between: begin to play something and really play anything.

Still not clear what you mean by playing... what's that anything? I still thing it is more about what's in your head or soul than just fingers (though may be both)

I am not much into analogies but with certain restriction it could be useful to compare with an actor who mastered accent speech and all the tricks but he does not have a part to play, not carachter, no circustances - nothing...

It is very probable that while warming up you get into the mood or into the idea... I am a big fan of classical pianist Konstantin Lifschits - he is often criticized that his playing is not elaborated but what I see is that he is kind of getting into the piece graduallay - first touches carefully then gets into it slowly... and I see no problem with it - music is live and this is very live approach he like lets it grow right in fron tof you... it appears for the first time..
From point of view of practice it could be also warming-up but not techical

But have you seen a short film Emilie Mueller - it's just 20 min but it really tells much about it

[VKat]

...
Maybe - that's just what it is? In that case my initial post is worth nothing - it's just a mear complaint of a dissatisfied man.

What I mean by that. On the first page of this thread Guitarzen mentioned the role of talent in guitar playing and that's of course something no one can question. Or, you can of course but that's pointless.

Imagine we are on a athletic forum and I write something like this:
'I've been practicing jumping over a horizontal bar for 10 years and I still cannot jump higher than 1.3 meters and I see lot's of guys can jump easily over a 1.5 bar.'
In that case someone would probably say: calm down - that's your physical limit.

Of course guitar is not so physical as athletical jumping but still is.

We could go to mathematician's forum as well and I could complaint about my inability to solve complex tasks while someone could solve them easily. Sure some people are witty and let's admit some are... not.

So, maybe what I describe is some sort of my limit in guitar playing?

[VKat]

...
It is very probable that while warning up you get into the mood or into the idea... I am a big fan of classical pianist Konstantin Lifschits - he is often criticized that heis playing is not elaborated but what I see is that he is kond of getting into the piece graduallay - first touches carefully then gets into it slowly... and I see no broblem with it - music is live and this is very live approach he like lets grow right in fron of you... it appears for the first time..
From point of view of practive it could be also warming-up but not techical

Maybe you are right. When I studies clarinet 7 years ago, my instructor, a very experienced classical musicians who spent all his life playing in symphonic orchestras told me this:
'What do you think? We are all different. I can pick up my clarinet and play it immediately but many of my colleagues, all professional musicians from an orchestra could spend an hour blowing their horns against the wall before a concert until they were ready to perform."
There is of course something special about wind instruments where tone production is very important and that's what my teacher was probably talking about - getting into the right tone.

[Jonah]

more risk for winds for sure...

but also in classical there's much more details in articulation that are important and expected and besides there's score...

play slow legato pianissimo French horn solo - even for a good pro there's a risk to make a mistake...

so you played clarinet?

[grahambop]

VKat

Maybe it just takes your hands longer to warm up than some people. It might not be worth worrying about.

When I play classical guitar I usually mis-finger quite a few left hand notes, and my right hand is quite clumsy, until my hands have really warmed up. I would say 20 minutes warm-up is not unreasonable before I would dare to attempt a moderately difficult piece.

For some reason I don't get this with jazz guitar, but I suspect that's down to differences in what I'm playing. E.g. for jazz I will mainly be playing single-note lines, not as complex for the hands as playing a classical guitar piece, which requires all sorts of co-ordinated simultaneous left and right hand fingerings. And for jazz I can play slower if I feel like it, on days when my technique is feeling a bit sluggish.

[VKat]

OK, now confessing...
I started my 'new wave' of music education 10 years ago with guitar an alto saxophone. It lasted for one year with an alto and I decided to take up clarinet only because I liked the clarinet as well and I knew it would be difficult to transition to clarinet from the sax later on. I studied clarinet for one year before I developed serious tendonitis in my right hand wrist. I had to part with the clarinet which I regretted a lot.
Then I decided to go with trumpet because I didn't want to return to the sax. So I learned to play the trumpet for about 6 years maybe until I had an upper front tooth removed. I need to do something about it but at the moment I have no funds to fix it.
A year ago I added piano to my arsenal and now I spend more time with piano.

All that time throughout my "musical career" I've learned to play guitar as my mainstay.

...

so you played clarinet?

[ecj]

What I mean by that. On the first page of this thread Guitarzen mentioned the role of talent in guitar playing and that's of course something no one can question. Or, you can of course but that's pointless.

Imagine we are on a athletic forum and I write something like this:
'I've been practicing jumping over a horizontal bar for 10 years and I still cannot jump higher than 1.3 meters and I see lot's of guys can jump easily over a 1.5 bar.'
In that case someone would probably say: calm down - that's your physical limit.

Of course guitar is not so physical as athletical jumping but still is.

We could go to mathematician's forum as well and I could complaint about my inability to solve complex tasks while someone could solve them easily. Sure some people are witty and let's admit some are... not.

So, maybe what I describe is some sort of my limit in guitar playing?

Didn't realize you were a finger picker. Go get the Shearer instructional books. Trust me. They will change your life, and not just in terms of technique. He has a whole system for musical instruction that is really comprehensive, structured, and eye-opening.

They're up on amazon.

Hear me that when I say this I mean it: if I could develop good technique, you can, too. I am a very uncoordinated dude, and struggled with the instrument for years before I could play my basics (scales, arps, etc.) quickly and confidently. You just have to take a few steps back and re-evaluate. You're obviously doing something very wrong now, and you need to figure out what that is and fix it.

It could be a few very simple little things like: how you hold the guitar, how you position your left hand, where you're holding tension. You take care of those with a daily routine, then branch out. The Shearer books will give you a good model to strive for, which is what you need. Right now you don't know what you should be doing, so how are you going to do it?

To go back to your example, if you wanted to improve your high-jump you'd go find a coach. And you'd look for a coach who is known as a good coach. Shearer is that coach for you.

The level where talent separates great from good is far, far away from missing strings that you're trying to fret. Talent is what lets someone get to the professional level. You're just looking to get better.

It's like you can't even shoot a free throw and you're worried that you'll never be able to learn because you don't have LeBron James' genetics. It's silly. You can get this. You just need some basic instruction.

[Jonah]

ecj,

point is he says he does not miss strings after warming-up.. that is what bothers VKat

Probably he has the technique - we cannot say untill we hear or see him play something (after warming up)

[VKat]

OK, thanks everyone. I appreciate all your input and advice.
This was a very useful and fruitful coversation for me.