Guitar Technique evaluation.

[Sickz]

Do you want the soft comments, or real shit...

Hit me with the real shit, i am intrigued to hear what you have to say.

[Sickz]

This is good practice, but one important thing to keep in mind is that you can't do everything fast that you can do slowly. Just because you get something dependable slow, doesn't mean it will scale up and work at fast tempos. You can waste a LOT of time practicing mechanics that don't work well at high speeds super really slowly. I know. I've been there.

Yeah, i know that. I am always trying out playing the things i have practiced really slowly at a faster tempo at the end of my practice. Some things have to be changed in order for some things to flow at a higher tempo, but i am still trying to make as many things as possible work with one way of playing, so i don't have to change my technique in order to play something.

[christianm77]

This is good practice, but one important thing to keep in mind is that you can't do everything fast that you can do slowly. Just because you get something dependable slow, doesn't mean it will scale up and work at fast tempos. You can waste a LOT of time practicing mechanics that don't work well at high speeds super really slowly. I know. I've been there.

This is a good point. I think a rigorous approach to picking (as ecj points out) is the answer here, but for Benson and Gypsy picking (which use the same pick stroke patterns IIRC) you are going to find that there are certain combinations of pick strokes that are very awkward. You find ways to re-finger or 'cheat' certain combinations at tempo. But the limitations are very clear.

That said, I tend not to worry too much about being able to play everything fast, and it seems to work out OK.

[christianm77]

Anyway, broadly speaking I would divide my technique into three sections:

1) Slow (around quarter notes to about 240ish) - here, I can get away with almost anything mechanically, so downstrokes are often the best solution for their tone and assertiveness.
2) Moderate (eight notes up to around 280ish) - I need to use some upstrokes, but things are a little more forgiving - I'm not playing truly 'fast' in the shred sense. This is my regular technique. I can improvise pretty well at this tempo range, although as things get faster I tend to chunk things down into longer phrases.
3) Fast (anything faster than 8ths at 300) - automatic playing. Here technical considerations are paramount. I tend to play a fairly limited vocabulary of patterns and so on. Any improvisation in 8ths tends to purely prosodic - based around lengths of phrases, rhythms etc.

Anyway, improvising on a fast tune is not necessarily about roasting endless streams of 8ths (my tendency). Take for example Jesse Van Ruller and Peter Bernstein's solos on this med-up tune very different approaches, from Ruller's stream of 8ths to Bernstein's more sparse and considered approach:

[ecj]

Yeah, i know that. I am always trying out playing the things i have practiced really slowly at a faster tempo at the end of my practice. Some things have to be changed in order for some things to flow at a higher tempo, but i am still trying to make as many things as possible work with one way of playing, so i don't have to change my technique in order to play something.

My point was less about making sure you try to do stuff fast than about making sure that you find a method that is proven to be dependable.

I can't really see your right hand that well in your video, but it looks like you have a lot of wasted motion, and I'm not surprised that you're struggling to get past 16ths at 120bpm. My impression of the guitar is that most guitarists get stuck at right around that level with alternate picking (somewhere between 115-130 bpm) until they find a right-hand mechanic that will work better and scale up.

Do another vid where you focus on the right arm and play something as fast as you can. It's hard to tell with slower lines, because the big problems (tension, etc.) really only come on full display when the technique breaks down.

[ecj]

Gonna double post here, because I thought of a better way to explain what I'm trying to say. BTW, this is the subject of guitar pedagogy that I've probably thought the most about because of how terrible my technique used it be. I'm pretty speedy now, and I'm convinced that if I can do it with my uncoordinated, slow-twitch athletic makeup, anyone can.

Here's the problem: most guitar blogs and books convince people that they need to practice super slow (like your 21-day thing), then slowly bring he metronome up until things breakdown. Then you pop back down and finish practice with some clean performance.

You're supposed to do that every day for a few months and then, viola, you get fast. Sounds simple, and I tried it for years. It's embarrassing how much time I've spent with a metronome and scale patterns.

The difficulty is that you have to go on faith, because for the first few months you do it, you're not going to get anywhere near the speed that you want. Let's say you're working on a simple scale and you get up to 16s at 120bpm and your skills breakdown. You drop the metronome back to 115 and end practice. The next day you get back up to 120, then you get stuck again. Rinse and repeat. Everyone just tells you to relax.

How do you know that you'll ever get past 120? You don't.

The only way you can know for sure if you'll get beyond that level is to copy what someone else is doing that got beyond that level. Otherwise it's a crap shoot.

That's why I'm a big advocate for things like the Benson picking thread. JC Stylles came on there and offered his tutorial. I got it, sat down and watched it, copied everything he did, and eventually got my speed up. I knew it worked because I could see him doing it, so when I got stuck at 120 for the first few days I knew I could eventually get past it. If he could do it, why not me?

Horowitz has done a similar service for people interested in gypsy picking, and you should check out his books if you want to go that route. I think probably Troy Grady is your best guy if you want to go for the rock thing.

Like with all art, you have to go on faith that things will eventually work. Some of the greats just stuck with their thing (Wes Montgomery, Pat Metheny) and it worked for them, but they're geniuses. For the rest of us it's probably better not to try to re-invent the wheel and just go with shit that is proven to work.

Hope that makes sense. I'm pretty passionate about this stuff because I remember how frustrating it was to hit the 120bpm road block, and trust me that it's INCREDIBLY FUN the first day you are jamming along with a backing track at 300bpm looking at your hands and thinking, "This is me?"

Anyone with normal functioning hands can get it.

[christianm77]

The reason is alternate picking is actually very difficult. Floating wrist free stroke alternate picking is probably the most challenging way to pick. It's too difficult for me.

For any alternate picking styles, string clearance is a major issue, for example, because the pick is stuck in the plane of the strings. Because you are alternating you need to be able to do this in both directions.

GJ and perhaps also Benson technique optimises in one direction (the pick can easily clear the next string up for a downstroke) with no wasted effort and absolute efficiency. However - playing the string above after a downstroke is tough. There are work arounds.

(BTW - ecj is that the same for Benson, or do you have more flexibility? I do know that GB follows similar picking rules to Django stuff....)

But that said - going up the arpeggio, down the scale is perfectly workable, and many jazz lines fit this scheme very nicely, and most of the time it's not much of an issue unless I am playing at really roasting tempos.

Like ECJ says of JC Stylles video, GJ picking is well understood, broken down and taught. Take your pick!

Alternate picking by contrast is flexible, but basically everything is hard.

If you play in the plane of the strings, outside picking (say following a down stroke with an up stroke in an ascending arpeggio) becomes very cumbersome. In my alternate picking days I got around this by using a lot of rotation of the wrist. This flipped the pick out of the plane of the strings momentarily and allowed me to skip strings easily. However, at very fast speeds this was no longer possible. I found it fine for standard bebop tempos.

You might want to check Troy Grady's analysis of 'two way pickslanting' if you are keen to preserve the flexibility of alternate picking.

I don't actually think wasted motion itself is the issue. Excess motion is a symptom not a cause. In fact you might even need to practice exaggerated movements - this is how I learned to Gypsy pick.

You need to think about where the movement is coming from - wrist side to side, arm rotation, wrist oscillation finger movement and consider what feels the most free and comfortable. Then, when you need to play fast you body will automatically minimise the motion.

[christianm77]

BTW I don't think that Troy's videos are useful only to rock players. I have found since watching his video on downward pick slanting I've been able to improve my pick technique right away.

Straight-ahead jazz technique is more of an acoustic technique, by which I mean the emphasis is more on producing a strong sound than muting unwanted noise (that said there are many electric style pickers out there playing jazz) - but the issues that Troy is dealing with - how to clear strings an so on - are common to electric and acoustic playing.

[Sickz]

My point was less about making sure you try to do stuff fast than about making sure that you find a method that is proven to be dependable.

I can't really see your right hand that well in your video, but it looks like you have a lot of wasted motion, and I'm not surprised that you're struggling to get past 16ths at 120bpm. My impression of the guitar is that most guitarists get stuck at right around that level with alternate picking (somewhere between 115-130 bpm) until they find a right-hand mechanic that will work better and scale up.

Do another vid where you focus on the right arm and play something as fast as you can. It's hard to tell with slower lines, because the big problems (tension, etc.) really only come on full display when the technique breaks down.

I see your point.

I agree, that video has quite a lot of wasted motion in regards to the picking. Part of it is my technique, and it is something i am currently fixing. Another part of it is that this video is me playing through something i just lifted off a recording, so i probably wasn't comfortable with it yet.

It is also worth mentioning that (as mentioned in previous posts), my way of practicing has changed dramatically since i uploaded that video. Both from how i practice to what i practice and my resources (currently enrolled at JBGW), and i have seen more improvement in the past month than the last year really, and have been able to break my speed barrier with various things.

I am however always open for advice on improvement of my playing and what i can do to get better (as long as people are civil about it). I will upload a video showcasing my right hand technique as soon as i get the time, i am currently out of town and will be for 2-3 weeks.

As always, thanks for all the feedback and advice, loving this community.

Best Regards,
S.

[Reg]

So....you need to post something that actually moves... anything works at slow tempos... show some non memorized playing over any tune, even a blues... Playing slow takes practice and skills but anyone can eventually get there and basically any technique will work... there is no stress on your technique, only getting your head together. If it take more that a couple of times getting something slow right... what do think will happen at fast tempos. If you want to see where your technique breaks down play at faster tempos... you'll also see where you need to work on understanding what your playing. The memorize and perform approach will take the rest of your life and you still might not actually get where you want to go.

There are two approaches to playing... memorize and force a technique to become better or develop better technique and play whatever you want the first time. You know eventually you can just play... this is a forum, most of us are guitarist and you don't need to convince us your into the music etc... this place is as relaxed as it gets.

anyway from your very short post...

So you have way too much left hand movement... you move your hand as compared to finger stretches, that breaks down very quickly with more complicated lines and faster tempos. Same thing with your picking... way to much movement, even at the slow tempo... you loose the hint of feel as you begin to play just 8th note lines ... the good news. you have great hand positions, any 21 day teaching approach...sound more like teaching approach for short term money.

[christianm77]

Edited - I think given what you are already doing, I agree with what Reg posted....

[ecj]

GJ and perhaps also Benson technique optimises in one direction (the pick can easily clear the next string up for a downstroke) with no wasted effort and absolute efficiency. However - playing the string above after a downstroke is tough. There are work arounds.

(BTW - ecj is that the same for Benson, or do you have more flexibility? I do know that GB follows similar picking rules to Django stuff....)

Great posts, christian.

I've spent some time working with the rest-stroke thing, which works amazingly well. Shockingly so. But I'm also committed to being competent with alternate picking for various reasons. I really like the sound of folks who nail that style - Martino, etc.

I've found that the Benson picking works really well with alt-picking, too. I think it's because the motions are so small and controlled, and it's easier to make fine adjustments for me. I also have a theory that a big benefit of the "backwards" pick slant is that the plane of the pick matches the direction of the arm motion coming from the elbow, whereas traditional picking has the plane of the pick pointing opposite to the elbow motion. I think that makes string switching (using alt-picking) easier for me with this style.

I was never great at the traditional grip, though, so I'm probably missing something about the fine mechanics because Di Meola and McLaughlin, et al, can certainly move around quickly with it.

I don't have huge problems alt-picking scales and patterns up to around 8s at 300. Past that I find I generally have to rely on the rest-stroke stuff, but I'm still working on it.

[Reg]

Hey Evan... your comment about backwards slant of pick... is something I think is really important... And I believe you can work towards adjusting that angle with up or down attacks. It becomes natural, instinctive, you can basically control your articulations. It becomes a natural reflex of your phrasing.

I believe I posted some thoughts about that aspect a few years ago... didn't really know how to explain or break it down, because it's basically instinctive for me. But does help create that softer effortless picking style.

By the way it does seem like your picking has changes in the last year or two... the results sound really good, seems like you in a good direction...

[ecj]

Hey Evan... your comment about backwards slant of pick... is something I think is really important... And I believe you can work towards adjusting that angle with up or down attacks. It becomes natural, instinctive, you can basically control your articulations. It becomes a natural reflex of your phrasing.

I believe I posted some thoughts about that aspect a few years ago... didn't really know how to explain or break it down, because it's basically instinctive for me. But does help create that softer effortless picking style.

By the way it does seem like your picking has changes in the last year or two... the results sound really good, seems like you in a good direction...

Thanks, Reg. I feel like I'm making some good progress lately.

I remember your posts about using the slant for articulation, which is something I'm working on. I also took to heart your advice about developing alt-picking as a baseline to establish a flexible system. I have a few fun trick licks that use different economy patterns, but I like being able to always come back to the basic alt-picking system.