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Hi everyone,
I made a post here a couple years ago and you guys were extremely helpful, so maybe you can help me out again with the #1 thing that keeps me from practicing the guitar.
Seriously, I don't know when or why this started (certainly not in my first couple years of playing), but it's gotten to the point where I won't even practice anything anymore because it stops me before I even start.
I've become obsessed with "proper" fingering-- particularly during improvisation, or even just playing simple melodies.
-For example, I was excited to work through Frank Gambale's Chop Builder, but would become extremely anxious whenever the camera would not focus explicitly on his fingers, or if it would be filmed at an awkward angle and cause me to question "Did he use his second or his third finger there?" for 10 minutes, rewinding it over and over and having to finally make an educated guess. Most people would be okay with this, but it really affects and bothers me not knowing the exact, correct way that something should be done, or the way that someone else did it.
-Another example is Frank Vignola's Modern Method for Guitar. I think he's a really great player and instructor, but again, once it came time for us to learn scales, he let go of our hands and said "Play this every which way you can". I realize we should be doing this as guitarists anyway, but there are a mind-boggling number of variations in which something can be played, and I could spend hours practicing just one way for one scale in one position with one finger.
I'm obviously being overly analytical about this... but, as of this point, it's simply an enormous mental obstacle that I have to overcome. I've actually considered the fact that maybe I'm just too analytical to play the guitar, and should consider switching to another instrument in which the limbs/digits are assigned to a much more finite selection.
This brings me to three requests:
- Can you guys recommend some specific music pieces/tunes in which the fingering is clearly laid out (and possibly explained)? I believe I've come across some Howard Morgen (R.I.P.) chord-melody pieces and I nearly kissed the ground when I saw each and every note had the fingering notated. I realize that this approach might only serve to further enable the problem in question... but I really feel as though it might satiate the desire somewhat, and perhaps give me further perspective on different fingering options.
- Can you recommend any books focused specifically on the aspect of proper fingering? I believe Classical guitar is known to place a very high emphasis on this, so suggestions need not be limited to the Jazz genre (sorry if this is heresy). Musical piece suggestions within this genre would be welcomed as well. As a matter of fact, if you guys believe this entire question might be better suited to a Classical guitar forum altogether... please let me know and I'll gladly take it to one as well!
- Any general tips on overcoming this from anybody else who has personally experienced this kind of thing? I emphasize personally experienced because, as I mentioned, the majority of guitarists would simply suggest "Don't worry about it," or "Don't over-think it so much" in much the same way a person might tell somebody with depression to just "Look on the bright side of things" or "Just cheer up!". I'm hoping someone else has suffered and overcome this way of thinking.
Sorry for the enormous write-up... this is just something that has been affecting me for, literally, years, and kept me from practicing entire tunes because I'm afraid I'm fingering something inefficiently. Thanks in advance for any and all help!
- Vox
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02-18-2015 03:36 PM
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There is no right way to finger anything on the guitar. Just figure out whatever fingering feels/works best. Perhaps your hands are a different size to Gambale, Vignola etc. In which case maybe their fingerings are not right for you.
Nothing is fixed in stone either. Sometimes I will completely change the way I finger a tune, e.g. move it to a different position/string set.
You mention classical guitar, which I also play sometimes. Even where fingering is given for a piece, I will often change it to something I find more comfortable or musical. So do most classical players I suspect.
Don't forget, Django used mainly 2 fingers. It was correct for him.
I have been learning the melody for this month's standard, 'But Beautiful'. I reckon I have changed the way I play it about 3 times already, and I'm still not convinced I've got it right yet.
So learn to find your own way of doing it, and keep changing it if necessary.
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As grahambop said it needs to be repeated....
There is no right way to finger anything on the guitar. Just figure out whatever fingering feels/works best.
I've had a lot of teachers over the years and talked to many great guitarist and they all say the same do what works. They have even said that about books they have written with fingerings,try out what they suggest, but bottom line do what works for you.
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Herb Ellis has the fingering notated in his books "Swing Blues," "Rhythm Shapes," and "All the Shapes You Are." He played professionally with many of the best----Louis Armstrong, Ella Fitzgerald, Oscar Peterson, Ray Brown, Joe Pass, Barney Kessel, and many others---and developed a useful, fairly intuitive approach to fingering. It might help you.
As others have said, 'there is no one right way to finger,' but that is no help to someone who is struggling. (I went through this same thing with picking. "There is no one right way to do it," I kept being told, and I kept saying back. "I don't need THE right way; I'd settle for A right way for me to do it. That's what I can't seem to find....")
Robert Conti has a simple 'fingering protocol': one finger per fret, with the index and pinky sliding to an additional fret if needed. Wherever the index finger is, that is what position you are in. (I think others use that same approach. Conti didn't claim to invent it; I just know he stresses it.)
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I don't think this question is about guitar technique. This is a mindset thing.
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More practice, repetition of the major scales in 5 positions will build your ear-hand coordination, where you won't think about fingering. Your mind will intend a note, and your hand will play it.
Repetition of major scale fingerings up, down and mixed!
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Originally Posted by coolvinny
Exactly the OP is so worried about the technique he's not getting to just relax and play.
Whole idea is to develop you're technique so you don't think about it when you play, you just trust what you hands decide what to do. Again this is something that gets talked about when learning electric bass, but so much on guitar. Bass there are a lot of left and right hand style/muting/techniques and you learn them all and then forget it and play.
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When you're improvising, I agree with the above posts; there is no correct way to finger things, but if you're sight reading, try to read the first page of Barry Galbraith's "Fingerboard Work Book".
Some excellent rules to follow.
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I sympathize with the OP, if he feels this mindset has now become an obstacle to his enjoyment of playing music on his chosen instrument. I'm sure that many of us have encountered similar "hang-ups", from a variety of sources, whether it's gear or technique related.
I hope the OP doesn't consider my opinion or advice hard hearted, but it's the best suggestion I can offer.
I'd say, give the books or DVD's a rest, get Transcribe or some other software or phrase trainer, and start to transcribe exclusively for a while. By all means, categorize your fingering positions, and use these, or chord forms, as your fundamental reference point, but after that, let the musical phrases, and your technique dictate the fingering. Try out as many different fingerings for the same lines you transcribe, as you can think of. You'll instinctively start to feel what is "right" as opposed to "correct"
As well as hopefully breaking the obsessive "correct" fingering mindset, I'd suggest that real close listening, through slow down software, will reveal how the players actually finger many of their lines. That is, close listening should reveal the tonal nuances that portray things like, notes overlapping because they're being played on adjacent strings, or finding that a line can only be played in one position due to the frame of the line, or because the right hand picking only swings with one permutation of fingering/picking.
As well as the above outcomes, I'd also predict that you'll discover some new fingering possibilities that you never even thought of, you'll also be developing your fretboard knowledge, and sharpening your ear.
As another point, for better or worse, we can only play the instrument in our own way, regardless of how much we study the technique of other players. Time to embrace your individual voice and technique. Enjoy it. There's only one you.
Good Luck !.
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Wow! Thanks for such a quick response, everyone. In-depth stuff, too, I appreciate it.
MarkRhodes: Thank you a million times over! I can tell you understand where I'm coming from because you hit the nail RIGHT on the head. Couldn't have said it better myself. It's a "You gotta learn the rules before you can break 'em" kind of thing to me. Thank you so much for the book recommendations and for your post in general!
I agree that this is a mindset thing to a large extent... however, you guys mention that the idea is to develop my technique until I don't think about it when I play, but I'm still at the "until" part. I've definitely heard and seen the idea of "There is no 'right' way" countless times, but, as I mentioned, this feels like telling someone who is depressed to just "look at the silver lining".
Of course, when I'm improvising in front of an audience or with a band, this is the furthest thing from my mind... so I'm glad you guys pointed out that aspect. This problem only really arises when I'm trying to learn a new piece, transcribe a solo, learn a particular lick... woodshedding it, basically.
sgcim: Hadn't heard of that one!! Thank you!
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Let the fingerings serve as a phrasing tool. In other words you can finger anything just the way you want as long as the phrases sound fluid. Other than that get to know position playing really well. After that you can slack a little more with the fingerings.
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Suppose you were able to ask Tal Farlow how he plays 'Donna Lee' and he showed you his fingering. Originally Posted by Vox_Vicious
Then suppose you could ask Wes Montgomery the same thing.
I bet their fingerings would be quite a lot different.
So which one is correct? Who would you believe?
The point is, when working out something like this, you have to go through some trial and error until you get what seems right. I don't think I have ever found any way to avoid this process.
But eventually it gets a lot easier, as you start to find fingering solutions that work and can be applied in many tunes or licks etc. Try not to see it as a problem. Try and see it as a natural process that might even be beneficial.
I think it can actually be quite enjoyable to work out a new phrase and then try it with different fingerings, in different positions etc. and just generally play around with it. Maybe try and look at it that way if you can.
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Yes, and in addition how you finger a certain passage will - at faster tempos - depend also on what you are going to play after that. For improvising, probably not, because one is usually not thinking ahead like that, but for fast heads I find this to be true. I have some heads where I deviate from my "standard" fingering for part of the head because the next passage in the head will sound too sloppy otherwise. So I accept that it makes sense to make one part slightly "harder" in order to make the next part slightly "easier". And then I might not bother doing that if I'm playing the same head in a different key where fingering is easier because I'm higher on the neck (but not too high, where it starts getting harder again...). Originally Posted by grahambop
For a really practical fingering exercise, every day or two I like to take a slightly but not too challenging head (usually a blues but not always), put the metronome around 80 to click on 1/3 or 2/4, take a page of random roots, and play the head in every key, multiple positions etc. Usually I zero in on one or two that give me trouble, so I might shed those a few times, then put the clicker back on. This taught me a lot.Last edited by coolvinny; 02-18-2015 at 08:36 PM.
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It's absolutely true that you can play things countless different ways, but I don't know how helpful that is in the beginning. Most people, including the greats, began by looking at other people's fingers. You may eventually learn a hundred ways to play something, but it's often helpful to begin with one. Lessons with a good teacher would be pretty helpful.
If it's a "tune", hit youtube and watch some fingers. Try it their way, and then do your own.
Classical-type fingerings will only take you so far into jazz chromatics. If you want a point of reference - an entire system for addressing fingering issues, William Leavitt addresses fingering pretty specifically in his Modern Guitar Method and offers a protocol for dealing with accidentals from any position or fingering. It begins with 5 positions, out of which most of the work is done. But later, he systematically works through fingering 12 keys from one position. The system can be awkward at the beginning, but it's designed from the start to adapt to accidentals.
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.........and Pat Martino does that ' internal' scale, using the inner strings, and makes it work.....I'm sure someone can better describe it....didn't Howard Roberts use that too ??
......but I watch players right hand....as often as I can.....I was taught alternate picking, and it seemed to me left hand fingering and placement was always just expediency....here's the notes, here's the sounds, here's your hand with fingers, just get there any way you can and make it sound nice....
...... this always gets me back to right hand and how exceptional players can and do bend their thumb - with no pattern- sometimes at the first knuckle, and sometimes -again for no reason - bend at the base joint.....they do this whether on the upstroke or down.......Someone here once said it's a classical technique, but I have always wondered how it's learned, 'cause it seems so arbitrary.....
......interesting discussion, thanks....
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Want to get into a world of fingering hang out with pianists, so many different ways the play a scale depending on what's going on, then with differences in hands, gets even crazier. Then the flat fingered approach like Monk and some others used.
All instrument you you learn enough to start making your own decisions. You get some music trying the fingering, don't work for you then find what does from your experience. Course you could switch to sax and they start having keys modified. Or I just watched a video and improv for sax players so it started getting into tonguing and embouchure, who said guitar is the hardest instrument. Every instrument you get the basics and you take it from there, then you get to around the bar after gigs and talk shop and learn more.
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Hey Vox......I hear you and think that the "until" word is the one to dig into.
I would recommend thoroughly learning the 5 fingering system as a firm foundation.
For this you could do Jimmy Bruno's course [as someone up stream suggested].....that's what he teaches.
Some people call this the CAGED approach......there are countless lessons available on this online,
OK you'll have to sift the wheat from the chaff ....Joe Pass used this system BTW....the fingerings
are based off the CAGED chord forms that we all learn at the beginning of our guitarring lives and that makes
visualizing the fingerings much easier.
Be aware that by looking at say Gambale's approach that he is using 3 notes per string fingering.
Many here use that as their home base, I use that and a number of other personally comfortable fingerings.
Later for that I say.......If I were working with you I'd have you really internalize your 5 fingerings of the major
scale before even considering other fingerings.
And I'd suggest that you don't just play up and down the scales.
Rather, play patterns....melodies, I prefer to call them.
For example ......what some call "digital" patterns.... 1234.... starting on each degree of the scale
1235 ditto
1345 ditto
..And so on..
Then in intervals.....2nds/3rd's/4th's/5th's/6th's/7th's
Play these in each of the 5 fingerings starting at the lowest note available in the given position you're in.
Then do the same descending......many overlook this and get stuck having to find the lowest root note.
Don't be one of those types
Then practice your triads ascending-descending and descending/ascending. Call them by name as you go.
Do you see how strong your ear to hand co-ordination will become....perhaps not until you do it.
I was urged to do this many years ago by my mentor, a very gentle, gentleman who sold guitars by
day and played all the cool jazz stuff I lived at night.
He was an Englishman who studied in London with Ivor Mairants....it was that man's book "Ivor Mairants'
Book of Daily Exercises" for plectrum guitar that he insisted I buy and learn everything in it......I did....
.....It worked.....and there was no tab or any of that BS....felt very grown up for a 17 yr old rock guy.
I remember when he bumped into me in the street not long after he'd returned from a trip back to London.
He was showing me some fingerings on his right arm that he'd just learned from Herb Ellis who he'd had
a couple of lessons from......the guy...my mentor Jim was just so enthusiastic to show me..excited almost in
his reserved British way
I just went to dig that Mairants book off my shelf and I'm right back in 1969......thank you "Gentleman Jim"
....as my mentor was spoken of in my small circle of "serious" players.
The world's your oyster man, as long as you set a course and stick to it.
It's all too easy to get sidetracked these days......so be strong.
If you want more specific ideas, I'd be happy to offer what I can.
I did teach professionally for 35 years or so, but have retired from that to pursue my own playing.
PM me if you want.
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I haven't done the Bruno thing. CAGED isn't any kind of codified thing. People seem to finger them a little differently and still call it CAGED, especially when you start altering from diatonic.
I don't know what you do with melodic minor. I monkeyed around with some shift-based melodic minor and just couldn't get into it. Melodic minor is where CAGED jumps the shark for me. I'd be interested to know what kind of MM fingerings you guys use without stretches. Hard to have a reference for where I am on the fretboard when everything is shifting that much. Is there a go-to reference fingering people have for CAGED MM fingerings? Something one of the greats used that's kind of the standard? I've seen some widely varying "CAGED" MM fingerings...
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Fingering has only one question behind it - 'what for?'
Fingering is a way
- to organize fretboard while improvizing. So you must know concepts you use.
- to achieve needed phrasing, speed and articulation. This goal might be set only through real music, not through scales or excersises. That is you must know what you want to play as music, then you can excersise those points that you miss to play this music.
- to minimize physical strains while playing. Sometimes it is important to change firngering to avoid pains and injuries in hands, also very personal
So it can be 'proper' in relation to these criterea. Very very practical thing that is absolutely useless without real piece of music, personal concepts, and a pair of hands)))
No irony, or sarcasm... I mean it. It is not a big deal
you said for example
Can you say what for could you spend hours practicing one way for one scale in one position with one finger?but there are a mind-boggling number of variations in which something can be played, and I could spend hours practicing just one way for one scale in one position with one finger.
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I have found that the Berklee series is pretty specific in fingerings.
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To me all these things are just different names for pretty much a the same thing. I go back to when it was just the 5 sometime 6 scale patterns not CAGE or Bruno or whatever. AT GIT back in 80 was just the patterns that HR suggested, and later I did the Berklee patterns with focus on 3 notes per string, which I hear are a variation on a classical fingering. Pick one learning then the others are just could call "dialects". Bottom line they are just dots on a grid. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Now once again where I learned the most about fingerings was from playing bass. We start with major scales on one string, then two, and after that three strings is piece of cake. Key is you learn how scales are constructed both theoretically and on the fingerboard. You learn scales as little tetrachords you can combine as needed from anywhere. I found viewing scales as tetrachords or one octave patterns it opened up the fingerboard more than the big CAGED and similar patterns.
Kind of like when I was teach computer programming people got screwed up trying to learn too many languages at a time. With these scale pattern pick one doesn't matter Berklee, CAGED, Bruno and learn it inside out. That will be your point of reference for checking out or learning other patterns in the future. Or like me getting small to see big.
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You're not the only one. Originally Posted by Vox_Vicious
Sometimes these threads get pretty philosophical, and really accomplished players often end up basically saying something like your quoted phrases. A statement like "you need to be able to do it any way that works" is very true, but in my mind, is more of an end game philosophy. In reality, most people start somewhere, with a reference point. Later, you learn that you can do a lot outside of that.
For lack of better terminology, teachers of beginning students will say that it's "the proper way" to finger something etc. Maybe a better term would be "a good way to finger things at the start". Limits are pretty helpful at the beginning of learning most things in life. Something is always easier than everything. "Do it any way you like" is a little overwhelming, and to be honest, most don't start that way.
I think it's worth noting that, a player like Reg, although he tends to take a mindset of players' reaching the eventual goal of being able to play anything in any way, still emphasizes the importance of a fundemental, (and simplified) beginning reference point. His base fingerings are mostly the same as William Leavitt's and use the same protocols for dealing with accidentals etc.
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All I'm saying is pick an approach to fingering and solidify that.
Just one way.......until.......
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Hey everyone,
I can't help but "Wow" again at the thoughtfulness and expeditiousness of your replies.
It's been a busy couple of days and I've just now been able to finish everything you guys said... I find myself a bit overwhelmed again, but in a better way this time! Because you've all brought something to the discussion: Presented opposing views of thought, ideas that I hadn't considered, and some practical books and methods that I can look into.
I'm going to have to re-read some of these posts in an effort to find out the context and background about what some of you guys were saying... there are a lot of names to keep track of here, so maybe I'll just present my current thoughts/questions here and possibly PM some of you if I missed anything.
To you and the others (like jbyork) that brought up Jimmy Bruno's method: are you referring to his "No Nonsense Jazz Guitar" DVD, or something else? I did come across a free preview of the booklet online which contains the first 3 pages, but for the very first scale example (Ex. 4 in F Major, 5V2), there's no explanation given as to his approach towardnotes below the root... is this addressed later on?
Moonray: Awesome suggestions, and thank you for the extra background and invitation to PM you more questions. When you're talking about "patterns", I assume you're going up by scale degree each time? For example, you said "1235", so in C, "C-D-E-G", then "D-E-F-A", etc?
Docbop, I think you're right in addressing the problem of multiple schools of differing thought. I'll admit that I'll begin studying one method of fingering something... then jump ship when I see another one, then jump back to the other one, and so on. Couple this with the million other things that guitarists have to work on, and there's no chance of consistency in any ONE method. Funny that you mention programming, too. I recently began trying to tackle that beast as well, and it was a similar thing at first... "Python? C++? Ruby? Javascript? Okay, Python it is... now, 2 or 3?" hahaha.
matt.guitarteacher, really enjoyed your contributions as well. I'll admit that I never got past the first half of the Berklee Modern Method either... I know, I know what you guys are thinking... and you're right. I just need to stick to any one to begin with... and learn it inside and out. Totally agree about it being an "end game" philosophy though. Kind of like telling someone who's just broken up with their first girlfriend that there's plenty of other fish in the sea... to them, "she" was the one! It isn't until later that they can look back in amusement and see that they were stressing out over nothing and should have been devoting those mental resources and that time to more productive things.
Hey, come to think of it...
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The Jimmy Bruno DVDs have been superseded by his "Five Fingerings" that work well - the same as Howard Roberts, BTW.
The goal of any of these fingering methods is to get control over the major scale - the bedrock foundation - all over the fretboard.
By doing so in an organized manner, you will, over time, "hear" where the notes are, and not think so much about them.
Practiced regularly, plan for 1-2 years to reach this point intuitively. Drill, yes, but you can't play music, let alone jazz without this foundation.
Jimmy Bruno eases this pain by getting into songs early, but making you improvise in five positions using the diatonic scales (he calls them pitch collections) only - reinforcing the sounds in the major scale and training your ear.
Outside notes are added only when you can demonstrate proficiency in these basics. Much emphasis on hand-ear coordination, much less so on discussing, for example, the fifth mode of the harmonic minor scale.
His method is well thought out, based on deep experience and knowledge, and works for many.
It all depends on what you want to do - play jazz or talk about it.
Here's one of his students at work:
Last edited by boatheelmusic; 02-21-2015 at 06:46 AM.
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