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I know that a bent left wrist (fretting hand for right handed players) can cause injury; how is the bent right wrist different???
Originally Posted by christianm77
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12-02-2016 10:20 AM
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Good question. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
It's my understanding that the problem with the bent fret hand wrist is more an issue with doing demanding things with your fret hand (such as stretches) with your fingers, causing the tendons to rub against the the inside of the collapsed carpal tunnel.
When you play GJ picking, the whole system is basically locked up to an extent - you aren't actually doing anything with hand.
I compare it with classical guitar technique. You want space under the wrist, but at no point does it look unnatural or awkward.
Watch the way Joscho does it obviously... His wrist angle isn't crazy, but it's enough.
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Thanks, Christian.
I'll see what I can do with that.
Some Benson pickers----I worked at that for a good while, with mixed results---have a bent wrist too. Very relaxed.
Yet Joscho's pick grip looks quite conventional. (The Benson grip is not---though it becomes quite comfortable.)
Is there a connection between the wrist position and the way one holds the pick (and the angle at which the pick then approaches the strings)?
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I use reststrokes for just about everything, so hopefully I can help answer any questions.
I am decidedly not a Roma (gypsy) player. Like most jazz guitarists, I've dabbled in some Django, but I haven't spent too much time on it. I play a solid-body electric and an acoustic archtop, and use the same technique for both instruments.
I'm not a Gypsy picker, either -- I don't pick all my string changes with downstrokes. I mostly use economy picking (like Jimmy Bruno), and I use reststrokes for both upstrokes AND downstrokes, depending on the direction I'm picking. Nobody ever told me to pick that way; it's how I picked from the moment I first picked up the instrument. It didn't even OCCUR to me that there could be any other way to pick, and except for a brief period where a teacher insisted I use strict alternate picking, I've always done it that way.
But I didn't always use reststrokes. That was a relatively recent addition.
Why do I do it if I'm not a Django guy?
Here's how I used to practice picking. I would practice using the smallest motion possible (like everyone told me to). After a lot of practice, I could get it pretty fast (especially on tremolo).
But I would always hit a wall -- if I tried to go any faster, I would start tensing my whole arm. I tried everything -- switching picks, different combinations of arm/wrist/hand motions, starting slow and working up gradually, concentrated relaxation, Alexander Technique, you name it.
It didn't matter: eventually, once I hit a certain speed, I invariable started tensing up.
The other thing was that my picking was very inconsistent. Sure, if I worked on it for hours getting it up to speed, it was great. But then I would focus on something else (things like chords, or learning tunes, or rhythm, or playing melodically, or... you know... ANYTHING other than just trying to pick as fast as damn possible) and I'd lose some of it. Or I would switch to a different guitar, and the feel would be completely off. Or I would switch from sitting to standing... or I'd have to play some string combination I hadn't practiced extensively... or I'd go on vacation... anything other than concentrated practice, and I'd lose it.
Reststrokes fixed two issues with that:
- My hand is MUCH more relaxed. Because I no longer need to worry about the smallest possible pick motion, I don't have to worry about using muscular exertion to halt the pick motion. The string takes care of that for me. Instead of a constant start/stop/reverse motion, the movement is now an initial exertion followed by relaxation.
- It gave me a point of consistency. I'm no longer worried about whether my picking motion is .04 millimeters rather than .05 millimeters. The motion is always until it hits the next string. Are the strings a little farther apart on different guitars? No problem -- gravity is doing most of the work for me. It's one less thing worry about when playing, which is always a good thing in my mind. And it's much easier to get back in picking shape -- if I have an extended break from the instrument, I can get my chops back up pretty quickly.
I don't think it's for everybody. Super-high gain players might find they have to work overtime to mute (it's definitely doable, just takes some adjustment).
Then there's this concern:
The trick is to rotate the pick a bit (what Troy Grady would call edge picking). This reduces the distance the pick has to travel quite a bit. And what you lose in motion-efficiency, you gain in relaxation and feel. Originally Posted by Stu Foley
I suspect that if you were one of those guys on YouTube trying to break the world record for "Flight of the Bumblebee" speeds, this method would not work for you. But for jazz? Absolutely. Listen to Django and Benson when they get going... speed is not going to be an issue.
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That's great! Originally Posted by dasein
It turns out that many players use rest strokes even when they don't think they are.
I have trouble with muting using this technique. It's great for acoustic - for electric, it requires modification. I would adopt a flatter wrist (close to the strings so I can mute) and change the way I create the downstroke movement.
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I think Restroke Picking also includes a movement from Pronation and Supination in the forearm.
I think thats the typical Pickingmotion for Restroke Picking. But its really logical, that they don't touch the higher String all the time while they make tremolo Picking. you would waist to much time. If the gypsys play really fast, i think they keep the motion of the hand and arm but not resting the pick all the time on the next string. This wouldn't make any sense, because the way get longer
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Well I can't say what actually happens when I tremolo pick, but I feel that this (and fast descending arpeggios) are one of those classic areas where the rules of GJ picking don't apply. Certainly it feels differently in my hand and wrist. Whether I am touching either string when I am doing this I couldn't say. Originally Posted by ginod
When you say 'fast' I assume you mean 'fast along one string' - cross string mechanics are very much based on the rest stroke.
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I've been using the rest stroke with my Gypsy jazz studies of recent. Here is a great video on the subject
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Yes of course i mean on one string. ;-). Sure you can't sweeping with out a rest stroke . Originally Posted by christianm77
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Update: Practicing the daylights out of all the gypsy exercises I can find, my technique is improving by leaps and bounds. I am now using it for everything whether it is gypsy jazz or any other style. For a guy who has less than half a year to age 65, I am thrilled to see this kind of progress. Originally Posted by rsclosson
I realize that the down-stroke on string changes is actually intuitive (for me). When I was teaching myself guitar, I was using this method without training and actually had to force myself to learn alternate picking. Now that I have "reverted" everything feels much more natural. I highly recommend this technique (at least for me.)
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Glad this thread popped in to my view again. I remember trying the rest stroke technique a while back and it felt good, but then I didn't have the time to really sit and dedicate time to it. Gotta get back to it and start grinding.
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Check out Lonnie Johnsons right hand.
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Looks like down (rest) strokes solely. But what's that guitar?
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It's a Kay. Originally Posted by TKO
EDIT TO ADD:
Like this one:
Willie's American Guitars - Imports, As Is, Etc. - 1961 Kay Value Leader
Last edited by Eddie Lang; 04-16-2017 at 01:32 PM.
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I don't get it, what are these "rest strokes"?
I thought maybe empty strokes (not touching the strings) but I don't see anything like that in the video...
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A way of picking where you cross the string and end the stroke by "resting" on the next higher string. This means that you pick not parallel to the top but "into" the top (direction wise, more or less, depending on the player, diagonally from above) for this to work. It really is a totally different motion and with an acoustic or archtop almost requires to flex your wrist to some extent. It seems counter-intuitive, but you can play really fast this way and with a strong, clear tone an rhythmic articulation. You maximize volume on an acoustic guitar this way and this is why historically it came about. Watch the many close ups of Stochello Rosenbergs right hand on YouTube. It is the signature of gypsy jazz playing. Django adopted it from Banjo technique but it is certainly a much older technique. Classical guitar players use it a lot too (but in the opposite direction). You will focus strongly on downstrokes with that technique although upwards rest strokes are possible of course.
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Thanks Frank, indeed I do these quite often in the context you described so well.
I just didn't know the expression and was misled by the word "rest" = "silence" ... hence my confusion.
Thanks again!
And - edit - didn't realize I'm on the 3rd page of a longer thread. Otherwise would have seen....
Last edited by DonEsteban; 04-16-2017 at 05:18 PM.
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Imo if you can get the downstroke the upstroke is easy
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Yeah, I actually started doing both ways immediately. I'm still over emphasizing the technique a bit, but can see some minor progression already. Combined with the 3 notes per string excercises/scales I'm going through right now it makes a great workout
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I use rest strokes on the downstrokes when playing benson style picking, and on both downstrokes and upstrokes when playing economy picking. I find that it helps with the staccato jazz groove, with the groove in general, with sound and volume, and with the easy of playing generally. First, the fact that you stop on exactly the same spot every time (the next string), and so the next movement also starts at exactly the same spot, helps tremendously with accuracy. Second, you don't need to use the hand muscles to stop the pick, the next string stops it, so ease and speed are helped. Third, to facilitate reststrokes on the downbeat only (which is what most players do when using reststrokes in jazz and gypsy playing), the whole hand is positioned a bit lower than it normally would, and this also provides a lot of effortless volume and speed.
An excellent read about picking and reststrokes is the article in Tuck Andress page, very analytical and informative.
excerpt from that article:
For example, when playing a note on the third string, just as in a classical rest stroke, you aim for the second string, let your hand fall onto the strings, hitting the third string in the process, and let the second string stop the motion of the pick rather than using your muscles to do it. There is no longer any need to aim carefully to avoid hitting the second string because you are supposed to hit it. Even if you miss it and hit the first string, you get the same results. What about clearing the fourth string? The angled picking path automatically keeps you away from the fourth string, so you don't have to aim carefully to avoid it. Upstrokes: Rather than swinging from an unspecified place in space, you are starting the stroke from a familiar point of rest against the second string. Simply by reversing the downstroke you will hit the third string and clear the fourth string.
The result: Accurate playing stops being like nervously walking a tightrope. The tolerances are now so wide that it is almost difficult to miss. Because the next string is stopping the motion rather than the muscles, the hand is much more relaxed. Downstrokes and upstrokes become like dropping your hand into a relaxed resting position onto a surface and lifting it again. You can freely vary right hand position without worrying about losing your balance, so you take on the flexibility of a dancer. Single lines feel like rhythm parts. It is all more punchy because you have also effectively turned up the assertiveness factor. Accuracy and feel stop being opposites. Your whole body can relax and groove. Playing like this can actually melt away years of stifled frustration.
To successfully do this, you need to use good left hand muting technique on surrounding strings. If you use light strings and low action, you will have to deal with buzzing, although string buzz caused by this technique sounds much better than string buzz caused by ordinary picking, and you may prefer to enjoy it as a percussive bonus. If not, playing less hard at a less acute picking angle will take care of most of it. I prefer to set up my guitars so I can literally beat them when doing this with minimum buzz. Most players don't.
This is a good place to mention that it is good to start out on all these techniques using big strokes, ignoring accuracy. First perfect the stroke while exaggerating it, then the accuracy will come easily as you gradually reduce the stroke size. But then you won't lose the accuracy even if you use big strokes. Once again, the most powerful path to accuracy is usually big strokes from gross muscles.Last edited by Alter; 04-17-2017 at 04:18 AM.
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It's been a few years since I read that article. Tuck Andress describes it really well.
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I play exclusively with my thumb and use rest strokes the majority of the time.
Will
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I found this video useful. (The guy who made it used to post here often. I'm not sure why he stopped.)
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Interesting !! The wrist angle he advocates is the same as I use for thumb only technique and his pick at a 45 degree angle equates to my own thumb approach where my wrist is quite a bit below the high E string (his wrist is at the same height as the low E string) so my thumb end up basically attacking the string at a similar angle he advocates for the pick . For me whether with thumb or pick it creates a very clean fluid relaxed approach.
Will
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His wrist angle is on high end of the rest stroke picking spectrum, but too low is to be avoided for sure,
And high works fantastically if you are comfortable with it. I have a lower wrist angle myself. But there's still an angle.
Joscho Stephan has pointed out that most players not trained into the style early on find it very hard to adopt a sufficiently high angle.
I'm not sure how correct my wrist is, but I think it's about the same as JS and I was able to retrain through sheer bloody mindedness.
Joe pass had pretty much a straight arm thoLast edited by christianm77; 04-18-2017 at 08:14 PM.
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