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Yes, it is a very good way to practice slow and precise. But that's not the whole part of the picture. I'll give my views on this debated and confusing topic:
Originally Posted by dcmey
I always use this analogy to explain "developing speed":
If you are a sedentary person, who wants to get in shape you start out slow, right? The normal procedure here is to walk a little, jog a little, alternating these two approaches. As your shape gets better (your VO2 max increases), you periods of walking decreases, while on the same time you're able to run faster for longer periods of time. The condition gets better, your bones adapt to frequent jogs, and you're suddenly able to run the whole training session. Most people reach a plateau at this point. They simple don't get any faster, or their time is only lowered a few mili-seconds every month.
What will a trainer tell you do here? Run slowly? No! To run faster at this point you have to try to push yourself. Procedures as "HIIT" (High Intense Interval Training) is introduced for the runner. Occasionally he/she has to try to sprint, and then slow down. This is needed to train the heart for more stress.
Imagine a sprinter trying to break his previous record - what does he do? Run slowly? H*** no! He participates in a specific strategy "attacking" the problems from more than one angle. One angle is the mental side of things. Another angle is perhaps the "start position", another angle is the breathing, and so on. Some days he runs longer than he needs to, other days he sprints, and on another day he maybe workout other parts of his body. It's not just a matter of running fast or running slow anymore.
How does this analogy relate to guitar technique? In many ways!
To be able to play fast, you have to train the right way. Playing slow to develop speed is only one tiny part of the picture. Playing fast involves these factors:
1. The right hand - (precise, controlled, and articulate picking).
2. The left hand - (finger independence, non excessive tension, fingers not going to far away from the fretboard).
3. The synchronization between the two hands - (each should be fast and efficient, but the hands must work perfectly together).
4. The body - (no excessive tension!).
5. Condition of the hands - (for how long time can you play fast in a realxed state? (compare this to long distance running)).
6. The speed itself - (how fast can you play? (compare this to a sprint)).
7. The mental perspective - (what should you think of?, how fast do you "believe" you can play?).
8. The musical side - WHAT DO YOU PLAY FAST, AND WHY?
All of these components can be practiced! How? We need to isolate each component and practice each thing in isolation at first. Then we need to practice some of them together, and then all of them together. A good teacher plans a strategy for the student in order to get through all this.
Therefor (depending on the individul - there are many modifications) I usually recommend the following strategy:
1. Establish a goal: What level of speed do you want to reach?
2. Establish your beginning general speed: (arps, scales, licks, patterns)? How big of a gap is there between your current speed, and your-goal speed?
These are basically the essentials to plan a strategy, and the content of the strategy is now based on the individual. Some does not want more speed than 600 npm (16th notes at 150 bpm) - these should concentrate most on starting slow, and gradually build up speed. Some can already play at this speed, but want to go to 200 bpm. Here it's a matter of isolating the difficulty (for instance lack of sync, finger independence, etc.) and work on this weakness in isolation. Some can play amazingly fast already, but only scales and arps... for these it's a matter of putting musical content into their technique. Technique is only a tool needed to express music! It's nothing in itself.
If you decide to practice technique this way (which I recommend), I advice you do it this way:
- tech-practice shouldn't take up more than 25-30% of your practice time!
- tech-practice shouldn't be more than 2 hours per day!
- remember: TECHNIQUE IS NOTHING IN ITSELF, but it is REQUIRED to PLAY MUSIC!
- practice to your weakness when practicing technique!
- isolate the difficulty - practice it hard and focused!
- arm yourself with patience - this process takes a long time!
- don't be discouraged when reaching plateaus - they will appear, they're normal, and they can be broken!
- find a teacher to help you!
IMO, speed is not just a matter of "slow" or "fast" practice. There are many, many factors and components involved. Some musicians are lucky to discover these things by themselves, or sub-consciously. Others never know why, they weren't able to play like their heroes, and simply give up.
Some of you may think that this is an "over the top" analysis! Maybe, but in order to reach a virtuoso level of technique you must do these things either consciously or on a sub-conscience level. I just chose to be conscience and aware of what I do, and must to do. I see so much advice about this topic, which I find a bit strange: most people deny that speed isn't a goal of theirs, but to me it's the most asked question I get!
Also, much advice given on the Internet is bogus. Find a teacher who CAN play at the level you desire! The chance that they know what they're talking about is bigger if they actually got the "chops" they teach you about.
If speed is not a goal to you, you shouldn't bother. Learn the music you want to and don't worry. The advice in this post is only for those who really want to apply it.
I don't want to discuss any more about whether it's "speed/technique" or "music"! My view is that music always comes first! Technique is just a tool for expressing music! In my situation I just happen to "hear music" that demands more technique than the average guitar player. I'm not insinuating or implying that all players need this "isolate and conquering practce". It's only for those, whose goals require it!
I hope those of you who are interested can use some of this. It's with the best intentions I've taken the time to write all this.
Now I need coffee, my guitar, and a little improv to "Stella By Starlight"
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Last edited by C.A.JO.; 04-08-2010 at 06:03 AM.
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04-08-2010 06:00 AM
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Hey Fep...3rd bar. I dig Kessell, good luck... I'm from CAJO school... the only point I add to strategy is you also need to know what type of person you are... Do you like to figure material by yourself, be told etc... Reg
Hey CAJO...Great information, thought process and approach to building technique...you sound like you be the man...Reg
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Howdy,
Just read through the thread and, as someone new to the board, thought I'd offer advice based on my own experience of developing speed (specifically related to jazz lines).
What helped me most was learning how to economy pick (the way Gambale does it). When I alternate picked everything I just couldn't handle complex lines and arpeggios. Adopting economy picking really has helped playing Martino-esque lines. Later I learned Jimmy Bruno uses economy picking too. The neat thing is that you can mix econ with regular picking naturally (after some practice). A lot of the tougher horn-like arpeggios are very doable using this technique imo.
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I alternate pick most stuff between 12 and 16 notes per second. sextuplets @120 octuplets @120. Obviously some patterns are more difficult than others.
On average I practice 1 or two hours a day, (but have just taken a whole week off). I have been peaking at this range for aprox 30 weeks.
World record alterate picking is held by Brazillian Tierro Della Vega (4 notes per beat at 370bpm). search you tube for his appearance on Japanese TV.
Next up for me is plenty of transcribing to quickly recognise/identify sounds.
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Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
Have you ever heard of Kenny Werner's Effortless Mastery seminars?
That will help you get really fast while still being creative
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Ha ha ha, I'm so glad someone said this. I very much agree. I'd say that Metheny and Wes are two of the top five guitarists in history, but in my opinion, they are incomparably ahead of any other jazz guitarist I've heard. The other 3 of the 5 aren't jazz players. Originally Posted by Chrizzia
I am not agreeing about the "rock stuff".
I think that jazz-players tend to decline rock-musicians, which I do not think is fair. Look at a guy like Guthrie Govan or Steve Morse.
They are just as musical as Miles was. Different genre, but not more " flash for flash´s sake" than a lot of jazz-players.
Actually I think that jazz musicians tend to just drop notes and play fast runs without the melody, but the theory and chords in mind.¨
I don´t want to bitch about jazz or rock musicians, I just think that jazz-players sometimes have an arrogant approach to rock-music( musicians).
Again, sorry
To me, feeling/sincerity is the number one criterion.
And I began with jazz playing.
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But it isn't the size of the box, it's the way you use it. Originally Posted by derek
I know I am not who you were refering to, but the Rolling Stone top 100 is a popularity contest. Rock guys can be really good at their thing, but it is a fairly small box compared to a competent jazz guy. Me, I am trying to be both.
And I would enjoy listening to Hendrix, Clapton or Page's 'box' (and Metheny and Wes's smoother jazz boxes) more than any other box I ever opened.
Great knowledge doesn't make an interesting guitar player. It makes a greatly knowledgeable guitar player.
Feeling makes an interesting guitar player.
Just my opinion.
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But how one expresses the feeling is a subjective thing. While Wes and Metheny are certainly in the top royalty of jazz guitarists, they are hardly "ahead" of all other jazz guitarists, you just "feel" them better. Stern and McLaughlin are not "behind" Wes and Pat, nor is Martino; it just may be that you don't "feel" them, as I don't "feel" Page, and consider him sloppy and unimaginative as a player. Once you're at the top of the field, it becomes about personal taste.
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Thanks for your civil and intelligent post. You state that among the "top" of the field, it becomes about personal taste, not how actually good they are or how much feeling they express. Originally Posted by ronjazz
Let me respectfully ask you two things:
1- Your statement implies that at the middle or bottom of the field, you might actually be able to make objective statements about a player's ability to express feeling...why would this ability to judge someone change for players at the top of the field? Wouldn't the ability to judge the amount of feeling they express perhaps stay the same, given that the person judging knows enough to MAKE the judgement?
and 2- You speak of the "top" of the field. How are you able to discern which players are at the "top" of the field and are consequently "unjudgeable", if you didn't make the same judgement on them to discern that they are at the top of the field?
Of course you can judge who has more feeling. You have to have a lot of info, but that's neither here nor there.
It is NOT an opinion. Beethoven express more feeling than Bach. Now and forever. You may LIKE Bach more, or you may UNDERSTAND Bach's feeling better, but one of them happens to do the act of expressing feeling better than the other. This expression is how well they are expressing themselves. What the listener gets from it or not has nothing to do with how well they expressed themselves, it only has to do with how well the LISTENER understands their expression.
Some people would like to BELIEVE that these things are opionions, true, but that doesn't make them opinions.
Montgomery expressed his feeling better than anyone else, with the possible exception of Metheny, no matter WHAT you or I THINK about it.
That's the way I see it. I hope I didn't bore you. And thanks for your intelligent feedback also.
Last edited by axuality; 06-11-2010 at 05:22 PM.
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you get faster by 1. practicing things up to high speeds from low speed. 2. impecable timing and 3.impecable coordination.
there are the physical boundaries of dexterity and the mental boundaries of just pure processing the information, but by and large, speed is merely a byproduct of good timing and good coordination.
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I posted these exercises earlier... Here they are again, they cover most left and right hand movements and I promise if you have a problem with speed they will help. You need good technique to really burn... but you can't really play them and not develop get faster... if that's your goal.
There position studies, you start at 3rd and move up by step up to at least 10th and go back down. here's the 1st one "1234", starting at 3rd position.
Finger; 1234 String; 6 3rd position
Finger; 1234 String; 5 3rd position
Finger; 1234 String; 4 3rd position
Finger; 1234 String; 3 3rd position
Finger; 1234 String; 2 3rd position
Finger; 1234 String; 1 3rd position
Finger; 1234 String; 1 4th position ( up one fret)
Finger; 1234 String; 2 4th position
Finger; 1234 String; 3 4th position
Finger; 1234 String; 4 4th position
Finger; 1234 String; 5 4th position
Finger; 1234 String; 6 4th position
Move up to 5th position and keep going until 10th and go back down.
That's one exercise, here's the rest which you practice in same manor.
These are simply the finger patterns.
1234 2341 3412 4123
1342 2413 3124 4231
1423 2134 3241 4312
1324 2431 3142 4312
1432 2143 3214 4321
1243 2314 3421 4132
Consider each one an exercise, try and include 3 or 4 in your daily practice schedule. Keep good left hand position... thumb under neck at about 45 degree angle, fingers over the neck and close to neck for least amount of movement. There should be space between the edge of your neck and your hand or base of fingers. The exercises should become very mechanical and clean with very little movement. Good to use metronome.
The same patterns later apply to arpeggio studies, instead of staying on single string, you play on different strings.
Finger; 1234 String; 6543
Finger; 1234 String; 5432
keep going just like the example above, start at 3rd position and up to 10th and back down. Use the same 24 finger patterns. I've added a simple PDF for further explanation. All these studies should be played with alternate picking at first, later after you develop good phrasing in time you can change the picking patterns. Don't let the guitar dictate your phrasing.
This style of exercise can be transposed to all scale, arpeggios etc... but requires good technique all the way around. Try and play in time with same dynamics and articulations. Best Reg
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Great advice Reg, I've used similar runs myself in my practice. I'll just add one thing to what you've said... Originally Posted by Reg
When practicing these exercises, shift focus from "getting faster" to effortless flow. Meaning that if you focus on getting the exercise to feel "easy" and relaxed, then speed will come as a byproduct. (Reg, I'm not saying that you implied a focus on "speed" - I just want to add my view on this ).
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Hey CAJO... Thanks... your comments are great and very true. I'm just trying to be simple. I have been asked for exercises to help develop better technique, which most of the time is speed... I was at Berklee back in the early 70's, had chops and came up with these simple finger exercises with other young players... we would burn them up together in unison, 3rds etc... they worked. I'm sure they were played before, but became the daily warm up and I've always pass them on (with scale and arpeggio application also). Personally I haven't played them in years, but I put in my time. Best Reg
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Originally Posted by axuality
well who are the other 3 please? don't leave us in suspense.
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Jimmy Bruno has a book with DVD, on Mel Bay, called the "Art Of Picking". It's loaded with excellent exercises and he goes through each on on the DVD. There's another Mel Bay book JB has, "6 Essential Fingerings For The Jazz Guitarist" that he discusses on the picking DVD. Get both. I love his stuff and I learned a lot from it. I think we can all agree that Jimmy has monster chops. What he teaches definitely helped me to increase my speed.
I can't add too much more; I agree that you have to take it slow and just build up to it. One thing I'll say is that there will ALWAYS be someone who is faster. In the end it has to be about making music. Enjoy yourself and don't let it overwhelm you.
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The great Jazz artists are truly geniuses. They are one in a million. It's hard to understand how they did what they did.
Speed in Jazz is a difficult topic because you have to play the changes in Jazz. I'm a big Wes fan so I play his solos over and over to try to get an idea of what he was thinking and how he did what he did. I can play Wes solos all day long and be happy just doing that. It’s great for building chops. Dexter Gordon solos are also great on guitar. Learn solos - from start to finish and play them over and over again. A solo is a story, a composition. A lick is not. Learning great solos from start to finish teaches you how to solo. That is your practice. Then forget it all and just play tunes constantly. You will start to play fast. Also remember that chromatics are easy on guitar and this will help you connect things at fast speeds. You will learn this as you transcribe more.
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Originally Posted by Kman
The great Jazz artists are truly geniuses. not so in a lot of cases.
It's hard to understand how they did what they did. no it's not.
Speed in Jazz is a difficult topic because you have to play the changes in Jazz. thats true, but - ever played fast classical pieces? they have changes too. ever played modal jazz? not so many changes -by design.
A solo is a story, a composition. no, it is NOT a composition, it is an improvisation.
Learning great solos from start to finish teaches you how to solo. it certainly helps, but it's not enough in a lot of cases.
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Yes, Jazz greats usually are geniuses in their own respective fields. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
Maybe it's not hard to understand what and how Wes played nowadays, several DECADES after his reign. But in his time, people had no idea what the hell he was doing, and still now I find myself completely lost in it, and not worried about it at all because he made it work.
Yes, Classical pieces have changes, but they read form an unchanging chart and practice the same EXACT solo time after time after time. MUCH different than playing the changes on the fly however you so desire to.
Yes, a solo IS a composition, and yes it is an improvisation. It's spontaneous composition, that's what makes it beautiful.
You'll be surprised at how far transcribing solos will take you! Did Wes not learn to play by transcribing Charle's solo's by ear? Did Stevie Ray Vaughan not learn with similar tactics? If you pick apart and learn every Bird solo, dissect them and learn from them you'll become a much greater player.
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It's hard to understand how they did what they did. no it's not.
Speed in Jazz is a difficult topic because you have to play the changes in Jazz. thats true, but - ever played fast classical pieces? they have changes too. ever played modal jazz? not so many changes -by design.
After learning Wes solos I am convinced that he was a genius. His thought process and ability were amazing. All of his solos are unique; there was no bag of licks from this guy. It just poured out of him. If you can elaborate on HOW he did it please fill me in.
To play fast guitar is not easy in jazz because of the changes. You can play blazing jazz licks all day, but putting them together over a set of chord changes is just a completely different ball game. That's why I think it's a difficult subject.
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Yes, Jazz greats usually are geniuses in their own respective fields.
We are talking around in circles with no specifics. So fine. Every “great” is also a “genius”.
Maybe it's not hard to understand what and how Wes played nowadays, several DECADES after his reign. But in his time, people had no idea what the hell he was doing, and still now I find myself completely lost in it, and not worried about it at all because he made it work.
Ever tried to transcribe Wagner or Stravinsky to see what “the hell” they were doing? Yeah Wes was great. I didn’t know that we were focusing on him in particular. It seems instead that you were talking in absolutes. Regardless, you are talking about urban blues here. Get a grip.
To play fast guitar is not easy in jazz because of the changes. You can play blazing jazz licks all day, but putting them together over a set of chord changes is just a completely different ball game. That's why I think it's a difficult subject.
Never said that playing it was easy. But analyzing it is not rocket science, per my above comments. Urban blues, buddy.
Yes, Classical pieces have changes, but they read form an unchanging chart and practice the same EXACT solo time after time after time. MUCH different than playing the changes on the fly however you so desire to.
BS. Not if you are a modest player, like Jim Hall or Grant Green. How familiar are you with the virtuoso classical guitar repertoire?
Yes, a solo IS a composition, and yes it is an improvisation. It's spontaneous composition, that's what makes it beautiful.
It’s usually referred to extemporaneous, but if you want to call it spontaneous, that’s fine. Either one is an adjective. So we agree then. Simply stated, it’s not composition.
You'll be surprised at how far transcribing solos will take you! Did Wes not learn to play by transcribing Charlie’s solo's by ear? Did Stevie Ray Vaughan not learn with similar tactics? If you pick apart and learn every Bird solo, dissect them and learn from them you'll become a much greater player.
Who’s surprised? Not me. It really helps, doesn’t it?Last edited by fumblefingers; 08-08-2010 at 07:49 AM.
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08-05-2010, 07:52 AM #121TommyD Guest
I don't know much, but I know this; fumblefingers should lighten up. Being pugnacious doesn't convince anybody.
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+1 Originally Posted by TommyD
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ok i've lightened up. i hope i may be forgiven.
and in turn i'll forgive the enthusiastic and overly emphatic comments from a precocious person, who knows not whereof he speaks.
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08-05-2010, 11:22 PM #124TommyD GuestYou couldn't resist, could you? Originally Posted by fumblefingers
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Practice at SLOW tempo (80 BPM) with a metronome. Don't just practice scales linearly - use patterns as well - set the metronome at the speed in which you can comfortably play the most complicated pattern, cleanly and evenly. That will be your starting speed for ALL your practice.
Start in 8th notes - accent the 1 of each beat - then accent the 'and' of each beat. Move to 8th note triplets. Again, vary the accent (1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-2-3, etc...) - Move to 16th notes and do the same with the accents (1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4, etc...). If you use a pick, alternate up/down - start with UP and then start with DOWN on the next root, etc...
If you do this, SLOWLY, and precisely, for at least 2hr per day, you WILL see your speed increase within a week.
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