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this passage is from someone called Tom Hess. i post it because i've just started to pick a bit from the elbow instead of the wrist all the time and it seems to promise a massive improvement in fluency and consistency - especially in string-crossing...
on the other hand i have been warned off the technique by experienced guitarists too...
i would love to hear what other players have found
"Guitar picking speed is developed by using your forearm to move your hand (and your guitar pick) from string to string, and your wrist is used when your guitar pick is already on the string you want to play. Great guitar players achieve a seamless balance in switching between these two types of guitar picking motions, and this balance leads to their great guitar speed.The wrist muscles are quite small and should only be used for more precise guitar picking motions on a single string. The forearm muscles are larger and more powerful, and when they are used to move your pick from string to string, they allow for maximum guitar picking speed and power (articulation). As you can see, it is critical to train both motions in your practicing to reach higher guitar playing speeds. Neither one on its own will give you the ability to maximize your guitar picking speed potential."
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12-06-2014 10:40 AM
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Jimmy Bruno is a elbow picker, works for him.
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Johnny Smith was also a forearm(elbow) picker, although it was a combination of wrist and forearm.
He described it as the fulcrum-like motion of a clock, similar to what was said above.
I've used that combination of wrist/forearm motion myself in a vain attempt to sound like Smith.
I much prefer his sound to Benson's, which sounds like the country pickin' of Hank Garland, and is better applied to funk (straight 8ths) IMHO.
However, Smith has been rightfully criticized for sounding a bit stiff, especially when compared to more swinging boppers like Raney and Farlow (of the 50s).
Whether it's the picking motion or his conception of jazz rhythm that causes this stiffness is the question.
I think it's his rhythmic conception, which was very classical music oriented.
He was a strict alternate picker, and could sound extremely fluid at fast tempos.
Pat Martino is a pretty strict alternate picker, and was strongly influenced by Smith when he was starting out, but he seems to use primarily his wrist, and sounds less stiff.
Harry Leahey and Mike Elliot also studied with Smith, and have frightening technique, especially Elliot.
I've heard that Dennis Sandole was one of the few completely forearm(elbow) pickers, but other guys from Philly(Jimmy Bruno, Joe Sgro) used economy picking along with the forearm technique to have a superior approach to DS'
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wow - that is super-informative! thank you so much sgcim. you know i agree with you about benson and smith - despite having put enormous time and energy into adoption the benson picking technique i do not much like his rhythmical conception - and i agree it is more at home with straight-eighth note playing (funk fusion type thing). i do not want to play in that style but am confident that the technique can be used to play a more flowing be-bop type style. i'm very struck by how much elbow picking helps with fluid string crossing and quick triplets.
thanks again for your post!
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Bluegrass players are great speed / alternate pickers and nearly all use a forearm technique to develop speed and rhythm. However they also post their third or forth finger which isn't quite so jazz orientated - but you can't deny they get that speed with 8th notes cracking along at >250bpm! (500 notes a minute)
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If you mean bluegrass players 'anchor' their third and fourth fingers when you say 'post' them, I disagree that jazz players don't post their third or fourth fingers on their RH.
Players such as Farlow, Raney, Galbraith, Chuck Wayne, Herb Ellis, Sam Brown, pat martino and many others posted their third and fourth fingers on the pick guard, and many of the younger jazz players also post them.
Some of the bluegrass players are branching out and producing quite profound music.
A good example of this is The Punch Brothers, who are astounding musicians.
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Sorry - I come from way back when guitar teachers wanted you to float your hand for fast playing - so I get nagged by fast flatpickers all the time about not resting my third or fourth fingers on the guitar face. Apparently I need to unlearn floating hand!
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I don't see Raney 'posting/planting/anchoring' his third and fourth fingers in these videos. I see his third and fourth fingers grazing the pickguard when he is on the treble strings, but I don't think it is an anchor/post/plant situation.
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As long as they're touching the pick guard, I call that 'anchoring' your RH fingers, so you have a guide on the treble strings.
If you touch the pick guard when you play the bass strings, it might be too much of a stretch, depending on the size of your hand.
I was taught by my first teacher to never let your fingers touch the pick guard, and I used to remove the pick guard from my guitars.
I then observed that a lot of the players I admired, like Raney, Farlow, Galbraith and others, let their pinkies rest on the pickguard sometimes, so I put my pickguard back on and experimented resting my pinky on it.
I'm not sure if it improved my playing, but at least it forced me to use more wrist in my picking motion, and made me reduce the amount of forearm motion I was using, which was good, because I was getting shoulder pain from using too much forearm motion.
I met a Russian balalaika player on a gig who used a lot of forearm in his picking and I asked him if it caused him any pain. He said, 'Sure, we all play in pain!'
I said screw that, and changed my picking motion, and the pain went away.
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Anchors away!
In my view one of the most free and fluid players on the planet. Players find their own unique way of getting around the instrument. Perhaps that's the true way forward…. "find your own way". Works for Jesse. Solid pinky anchor and palm raised above the bridge. No muting. Also absolutely no anchor when not needed. He seems to be able to do anything he wants.
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Thanks for posting that. I have Mimi's book "Arpeggio Studies on Jazz Standards." It's one of the things I go back to to check on my picking accuracy.... I might have to check out this too....
Originally Posted by jbyork
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I'll preface this by saying that I'm a neurologist and study how the brain learns. But I'm a better neurologist than a guitarist.
Some of us need to anchor our fingers in order to orient where our right hand is. That is a method to compensate for less than stellar position sense in the elbow and wrist. That position sense will improve with practice but will hit a ceiling. At that point it may be obvious that the added sensory input of the stretch of the thumb and index finger away from the planted fingers is needed to accurate locate the strings needed to be plucked. In my case I need that help from time to time, not always.
Anchoring the fingers also helps with consistent plucking strength. It is easier to control the small muscles of the wrist and hand than the elbow. But many players don't need that extra help. They have exquisite position sense and power modulation of the larger muscles controlling the elbow. I happen to be so blessed.
A common error teachers commit is to not take into account the individual talents of the student when it comes to technique. That takes quite a bit of insight and patience.
It's taken me many years to figure this out for myself. I'm not coordinated enough for shredding and never will be. I can't carry off Johnny Smith's technique despite studying it off and on for years, specifically his strict alternate picking. And I don't have the spatial resolution or position sense of Jimmy Bruno to never anchor.
Each person has to sort this stuff out for himself or herself. That's part of the journey. A wise teacher can get you there faster, but many are not wise. Internet videos can never completely direct you, but they can open your eyes and inspire.
Some of the most misguided advice is to tell the student to use whatever technique feels comfortable and natural. That almost always isn't the most effective.
In summary, anchoring can be helpful for those who are less gifted in spatial orientation and power control. It shifts the subtleties of fine guitar work from larger muscle groups and joints to finer muscle groups and joints. Anchoring can be used as needed for intricate work and abandoned the rest of the time. Many never need that crutch though.
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I've done a few hours as a student with Steve Kaufman at his Kamp and then again in the UK when he visited. Steve would tell me as an ex-electric player I have a habit of floating which won't help my speed and accuracy for flatpicking. On the other hand I have met a lot of good players who float - or do both without conciously knowing when they are doing it and when not. So it doesn't seem to be a fixed rule and both methods can work well.
However, as a retired teacher, I also agree with the comments about "do what feels natural" can be wrong. What feels natural is often just a habit and the way someone has played for years - or the way they have learnt in the first few months. Habits can form very fast, as we all know, and comfotable doesn't always mean it's right. Only an experienced teacher will be able to tell you whether you have picking problems that need addressing - starting to post your ring finger/little finger on the face ofthe guitar or pick guard (or stopping your posting)just because someone says you should do it this way or that way, is just a bad plan.
Personally I would never change a students picking action unless it was pretty obvious they were having problems that were causing issues with striking the right string, volume consistency, fluency, tone, or speed. And you have to make these corrections in the context of the students playing as a whole and their progress priorities. For example I would see far more issues with the left hand technique than picking.
With strict alternate picking, I have seen close up, top players achieve everything they want doing it that way, and I have seen too many students get into all sorts of trouble allowing themselves to mix it up with economy picking, alternate, and random rakes. I'd advise alternate picking and see how far that takes you before you start trying other techniques.Last edited by ChrisDowning; 01-16-2015 at 10:35 AM.
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Chris,
I went through a phase of strict alternate picking and realized a couple of things.
1. It slowed me down compared to economy picking, but not a lot. I believe others may find it to not be an issue at all.
2. It creates a certain sound that I may not want all of the time. Again, that's not a big issue generally. But sometimes you may want to break out of that and go glissando.
3. Alternate picking seems to insure a very clean attack.
So I think about these ideas and then hear Wes Montgomery. It's so very, very humbling. How could he do that with a thumb?
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Philco . . "in my not so humble opinion" . . and in consideration the the hundreds of posts, examples, opinions on the subject of picking techniques, your post above rings truest of them all. The best possible advice on picking technique usually comes from competent teachers and at a very early stage of a student's learning. One that is ingrained into a student's mechanical actions . . the student usually progresses to refine and perfect that technique to what's best and most suitable for them. Again . . that's just IMNSHO. Originally Posted by Philco
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Marty and Patrick - agree nwith all that. I gues as teachers we get students to do alternate picking because its a sound way to instill some rhythm into scales and pieces where ther are a lot of 1/8th notes. What I am going to say next will divide readers into - yes that's obvious, and er...I can't do that! When you start a student on either notation or TAB and notation, it's an easy process to get them to do 1/4 notes on the down beats and do the 1/8th note passages on a down and up down and up format (OK I know we can start with an up). Fistly its quite hard to get a student to tap time 4 to the bar with their left foot (right foot will move the guitar but can be managed). Then you can say all the normal quarter notes are played with the down (so no complicated dummer stuff here) and the up motion of the foot coincides with the up motion or an 8th note in the music. This is the fastest way to get a student to understand the timing of the notation and how it all fits with their tapping foot - and it brings with it alternate picking. The whole explanation to a student gets uber hard if you allow them to do rakes, economy picking, or their stuttered collection of normal and double time down strokes.
So I guess us teachers have caused lots of discussion about whether strict alternate picking is the only way. When you are more experienced and reading and playing is less mechanical - then I'd start to let you off and become more intuitive.
Does the above make sense guys? Its not supposed to read like a rule or edict - but lots of picking dicipline comes from learning music reading and note value issues. Clear - or have I confused everyone?Last edited by ChrisDowning; 01-16-2015 at 01:13 PM.
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Mark: first off, let not your spirit be not so humbled by Wes, for he was not a mere mortal . . he was a closet android programmed by the Gods to perform perfectly at jazz guitar. That is not Wes' thumb, or some silly little "corn" at the end of it, as reported by the so-called jazz guitar cognescenti. That is God's staff. Originally Posted by Marty Grass
Next, "It creates a certain sound that I may not want all the time" Yep!! But, becoming proficient at alternate picking also allows you to achieve that tone and articulation when you do want it. My first ever jazz guitar instructor . . and quite posssibly best true *teacher* I've ever had, was a man by the name of Al Faraldi. (RIP) He would hover over me while I played through scales in many different variations . . . (like a catholic nun would hover over a student with a wooden ruler ready to strike at the knuckles of those who mis-spelled a word) . . if my picking deviated for even one pick stroke from the absolute alternate of up-down. I would have to start a scalar run on the down stroke and perform it perfectly for two horizontal octaves across the fret board and back with strick aternate picking . . then I would have to start that same scaler run on the up stroke and perform it equally as perfect. Then, I'd have to start the scalar run with a down stroke on the 6th string . . and double up the last note of the scale on the first string, so that the return would be plucked in the reverse of the start. It really served to enhance left-right hand coordination efforts. I don't find myself wanting that pick attack too often. But, when I do want it . . it's there. I appreciate Al Faraldi for that.
So then, IMO, the best " plectrum pickers" . . are the one that can call up each of the available techniques at any givin moment, depending upon what they wish to articulate in tone, speed and emotion through their pick attack.Last edited by Patrick2; 01-16-2015 at 03:22 PM.
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Mark - Wes wasn't one of my students. 1. I'm not THAT old! 2. 99.99% of my students didn't play like Wes. 3. It would be pretty scary to have Wes as a student as most of a teacher's experience is with beginners in their first year of playing - but I like the idea of being paid and learning way more than you teach in the lesson!!
Patrick - Didn't ever take much notice! Anyway I'm older than Steve Kaufman and have been playing, albeit less fast, but about 15 years longer! AND - Steve wasn't with me in warm-up band for The Who during 1964, so how's that for raising the stakes! So there! Thirdly Steve will tell you of all sorts of flatpickers who don't follow the crowd and float. So I sleep soundly and ignore it all with some dignity! As you said I should. Haha!
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Please excuse me, but I'm slightly confused. I just received Jimmy Bruno's "The Art of Picking', where he says that the wrist shouldn't move. The movement should come from the elbow. Does it mean that you shouldn't really rotate the wrist either?
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I found something interesting regarding Jimmy's picking at another site (the economy picking stuff I already know about, I'm mostly interested in the rest of the mechanics): Originally Posted by MatsP
"He calls what he does "economy picking" -- just move the pick in whatever direction the string is. So it's alternate picking if you're doing a single string run, but not otherwise. And the wrist moves because it's relaxed enough to be moved by the pressure of the the string against the pick, but the movement for plucking a string is initiated at the elbow. The obvious martial arts parallels in speed coming with relaxation, but the temptation to tense up and bear down when you're trying to move fast."
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Jimmy is a great and does things his way. It's not the only way.
There is no best way. He believes in his way of course.
I wouldn't get hung up on having to pick a certain way all the time. Use any of the ways when appropriate.
Don't worry about it and use what works in the situation.
3 ways to pick:
Alternate
Economy
Legato
When you buy somebody's lesson program they teach you their way. It can be confusing.
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... Be careful with that elbow technique... tennis elbow... Jimmy is great, but don't put your Easter eggs all in one frying pan. Anyway, I rotate my forearm and move the arm very little. I love his book for the musical ideas he applies to the technique, but I don't like the technique itself.
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His ideas on "economy picking" or whatever, the pick direction, are great.
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Well, it feels like it's going to improve my dexterity and precision, so I'm gonna give it a try. Originally Posted by Drumbler
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Odd that he didn't include his infamous tremolo study within the book. I used to be able to do it with the elbow, I am relearning it with more forearm rotation. It involves playing a scale with a trem on the highest note. Very cool. I would post it, but it would be yuck. I'm sure someone else on the forum knows this study and could post it with better results.
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