Guitar picking - elbow and wrist

[MatsP]

Well, I agree that he uses a wrist movement when playing alternate picking on one string, but it's far from any rotational movement. It's more of a combined forearm and wrist movement to me. And he doesn't "pluck from the wrist" at all. It may look that way, though. I got an email from him stating that the wrist is not involved whatsoever in his playing, and that may be a bit untrue, since both you and I can see that it moves a bit when doing alternate picking. But the movement doesn't *originate* from the wrist. Let me once again get back to the analogy with a violinist moving his/her bow. The main movement is not from the wrist, but from the elbow.

Now you have to excuse me when I once again quote myself, Vlad I think your name is, but in my book, once you get the hang of picking with a relaxed elbow (and that takes practice, trust me), there is no cleaner and more precise way to rip away at any speed you want. Why do you think Django Reinhardt and Michael Angelo Batio picks from the elbow when they play those blazingly fast figures? That's all from me for tonight.

[jzucker]

And don't anchor, for God's sake, except by lightly brushing the lower strings with the palm, which I don't regard as anchoring, merely creating a reference, and a way to mute ringing strings.

yeah, you wouldn't want to anchor like Jesse Van Ruller or Steve Morse. What awful picking technique they both have!

[MatsP]

Bruno "missing" on a hi note?Yes, I do, but I don't care. I'm not his custommer, onr way, or another. Maybe he's just over exggerating "no strings ring", for easier understanding?

BTW, just like I said to MatsP, your habit of writting consecutive posts is really annoying and could be missleading. For example, in our little conversation above, on two occasions I replied to one message of yours, only to find my reply below another one you've posted while I was typing the response. I really wish some mod would tell you the same, kind of officially, with prospect of messages being errased and so on.



So what?



Now you have to excuse me when for the first time I say this: MatsP, you're so full of it, I think the expression is.



Why should I trust someone who pretend not to remember someone's name over the course of conversation? Or, if you really do not remember, how can you remember more important stuff, then? So, no reason to trust your opinion. All those names of famous players you pull out for reference .... So what? I said Bruno is alternating from the wrist, it's obvious from the clip... So what?

The heck he’s alternating from the wrist. Why do I have to repeat that I just got email from him telling me that the wrist is not directly involved? I don’t care if you think it’s better to alternate from the wrist, it’s not the most optimal way to play fast, as I stated earlier. When you play a really fast tremolo, and I do mean really fast, the movement is not coming from the wrist, but from the elbow. Unless you use some weird hand position which can’t be applied to the rest of your playing, so that doesn’t count. I don’t care for speed alone, but I needed to get a more predictable performance in my own playing. There were too many elements of randomness involved when using a moving wrist together with an occasionally moving forearm. I think you can understand the logic behind that statement. Then I found out that this elbow picking is what really does the trick for me. And Jimmy Bruno. And Django Reinhardt. And Michael Angelo Batio. Without further name-dropping, everyone who can play blazingly fast and where you can still hear the attack of the notes very distinctively and evenly. Give or take some magicians like Andreas Öberg and Paul Gilbert.

There are even people (most often self-proclaimed experts on the net) who are trying to tell us picking from the elbow is harmful. They don’t know what they are talking about. AS LONG AS YOU ARE TOTALLY RELAXED, there will be no more harm than when you move any other joint in the body. Once again, think of the bowed instrument player (e.g. violin/cello/contrabass) moving his/her bow. How the heck is that supposed to work if it would cause harm to your elbow? I for one know what I’m talking about since I’ve been playing the cello for 40+ years.

One more thing: When you pick from the elbow, the position and movement will be more or less consistent whether you're using alternate picking on one string or doing economy picking (or whatever you may call it) a la Jimmy Bruno, Frank Gambale and reportedly Johnny Smith.

Oh, and I’m sorry if you find me offensive, “full of it” or something, that’s not the purpose of my rants. We should perhaps just agree to disagree, rather than attempting to continue this seemingly fruitless discussion.

[ChrisDowning]

Once anyone has been playing for a number of years it is very difficult (perhaps not desirable) to change unless there is a big problem to get past. Personally I know my limitations and no amount of teaching a different way to pick is going to hold much traction for me as I don't have a significant problem in that area (- it might come 20th in my practice priorities). But for those who do have an issue, I don't think it can be addressed wothout going to a pro teacher to sort out. It is such a physical, and intricate movement, that I am sure we can discuss it, but a fix needs to be in a one on one situation.

What do you guys think? Can you self diagnose / self fix? Would you bother unless you had tendinitis or another physical problem?

[MatsP]

Once anyone has been playing for a number of years it is very difficult (perhaps not desirable) to change unless there is a big problem to get past. Personally I know my limitations and no amount of teaching a different way to pick is going to hold much traction for me as I don't have a significant problem in that area (- it might come 20th in my practice priorities). But for those who do have an issue, I don't think it can be addressed wothout going to a pro teacher to sort out. It is such a physical, and intricate movement, that I am sure we can discuss it, but a fix needs to be in a one on one situation.

What do you guys think? Can you self diagnose / self fix? Would you bother unless you had tendinitis or another physical problem?

It's difficult, but possible. And I'm going to do it, since I notice that it improves my playing vastly. It's not about overcoming physical problems, it's about using the most optimal way to play. For ME and many others, but obviously not for Andreas Öberg and Paul Gilbert. I should add that I'm not a teacher, I'm a player, and I don't recommend teachers to change their style unless they have really good reasons. But give the pupils a chance to discover elbow picking as an option. It may not suit everyone.

[MatsP]

Non-elbow pickers, ignore this. Tucking the pick in so that the thumb joint covers about the center of it helps me minimize any individual motion/flexing of the thumb and index finger when picking from the elbow, which in my book is counter-productive. You really want to isolate the motion to the elbow, and possibly a little bit of the wrist when alternate picking on one string. For the record, I'm currently using a Dunlop Delrin 500 1.14 mm pick, which is just a tiny bit smaller than a standard Fender celluloid 351 shape pick. Using a smaller pick like Jazz III, you don't get the same nice feeling when placing the thumb joint on the center, at least not in my opinion. Furthermore, the sound of the standard Jazz III isn't very full to my ears. The attack is distinct alright, but that's it. Perhaps the XL fares better, I haven't tried it.

[Drumbler]

There's a jazz phrase I just learned.

I used alternate picking, sweeping, and economy picking, all in this one phrase.

All are useful. None are exclusive of each other.

I also muted strings with my palm (anchoring).

My hand also floated at times.

Beware of dogma.

[MatsP]

There's a jazz phrase I just learned.

I used alternate picking, sweeping, and economy picking, all in this one phrase.

All are useful. None are exclusive of each other.

I also muted strings with my palm (anchoring).

My hand also floated at times.

Beware of dogma.

Jimmy Bruno's technique involves "all three" (actually economy picking stands for the combination of alternate picking and sweep picking) of them. And he often "breaks the rules" and uses strict alternate picking to avoid rearranging whole figures (well, sometimes you're simply forced to use alternate picking, regardless). When and how often to use sweep picking in a phrase is up to the performer, of course. Frank Gambale tends to be stricter (and more limiting in my book) than Bruno in that he tries to play three notes per string whenever he can.

Dogma is bad for you.

[Irez87]

Once again, I think the most important part of picking technique is knowing how to relax the hand with the pick between the fingers. I rewatched the Johnny Smith interview, and he has a good method for dealing with muscle tension when playing fast. It's a pinching motion where you go from tense to relaxed (shape your hand like you are holding a pick). It is much harder to control the pick, and deal with the intricacies of dynamics when your picking is tense. That's kinda why I've put Troy in the past. Got the Sandole book, btw. Really cool studies, and he talks about shifting (what a concept...) and pick studies as well.

[MatsP]

Once again, I think the most important part of picking technique is knowing how to relax the hand with the pick between the fingers. I rewatched the Johnny Smith interview, and he has a good method for dealing with muscle tension when playing fast. It's a pinching motion where you go from tense to relaxed (shape your hand like you are holding a pick). It is much harder to control the pick, and deal with the intricacies of dynamics when your picking is tense. That's kinda why I've put Troy in the past. Got the Sandole book, btw. Really cool studies, and he talks about shifting (what a concept...) and pick studies as well.

I agree on the importance of being relaxed in your pick hand as well. And tucking the pick in helps me relax, since I don't have to use a lot of finger force to hold it. It's neatly tucked in, so to say. And I saw that video, Irez87. A cool way to warm up without having to play a note. And I love his very calm way of explaining things. He's a joy to listen to.

[Shadow of the Sun]

With regards to relaxation, I think one of the most important things in picking is that a downstroke- regardless of whether one uses the elbow or the wrist- should be almost effortless. Hold your pick slightly above the string, and then just let gravity cause the pick to fall through the string.

Doing so requires you to be relaxed- allowing gravity to work doesn't do much when you're tense. Once you can do that consistently, you can work on speeding things up.

[MatsP]

With regards to relaxation, I think one of the most important things in picking is that a downstroke- regardless of whether one uses the elbow or the wrist- should be almost effortless. Hold your pick slightly above the string, and then just let gravity cause the pick to fall through the string.

Doing so requires you to be relaxed- allowing gravity to work doesn't do much when you're tense. Once you can do that consistently, you can work on speeding things up.

That's a very good way to describe the feeling. Sometimes I am lucky to have that feeling in my hand (and arm in my case, since it's equally important when doing "elbow picking"), the trick is to have it all the time. And once again, tensing up leads absolutely nowhere.

EDIT: Yes Shadow of the Sun, or whatever your name is, thank you for reminding me about this notion of gravity. It should feel like the hand and arm are just "falling down" (and that takes total relaxation).

[jzucker]

Frank Gambale tends to be stricter (and more limiting in my book) than Bruno in that he tries to play three notes per string whenever he can.

That's simply not true. Frank is THE picking master IMO. He can do it all. His approach to arpeggios and lines is head and shoulders above any jazz guitar player that I know of and he can alternate pick with the best of him. Just watch him on youtube. He's quite often using alternate picking, particularly when playing jazz lines. He also absolutely does *NOT* attempt to play 3 notes per string when he picks. At times he does enforce the notion of using odd numbers of notes on strings in order to execute a line with strict economy picking. And furthermore, economy picking is exclusively about playing notes on adjacent strings without changing the pick direction. It's absolutely *NOT* about alternate picking.

My problem with your approach on this thread is that you come across as a fanboy and I'm not sure of your level of expertise. Would you care to post a video demonstrating your technique on a difficult jazz head like donna lee?

Otherwise, I'm afraid that 3rd party claims of a technique being the end-all-be-all are just smoke and mirrors because unless you have put in the time with an assorted variety of techniques, you are not in a position to make claims about one being the absolute best.

[MatsP]

That's simply not true. Frank is THE picking master IMO. He can do it all. His approach to arpeggios and lines is head and shoulders above any jazz guitar player that I know of and he can alternate pick with the best of him. Just watch him on youtube. He's quite often using alternate picking, particularly when playing jazz lines. He also absolutely does *NOT* attempt to play 3 notes per string when he picks. At times he does enforce the notion of using odd numbers of notes on strings in order to execute a line with strict economy picking. And furthermore, economy picking is exclusively about playing notes on adjacent strings without changing the pick direction. It's absolutely *NOT* about alternate picking.

My problem with your approach on this thread is that you come across as a fanboy and I'm not sure of your level of expertise. Would you care to post a video demonstrating your technique on a difficult jazz head like donna lee?

Otherwise, I'm afraid that 3rd party claims of a technique being the end-all-be-all are just smoke and mirrors because unless you have put in the time with an assorted variety of techniques, you are not in a position to make claims about one being the absolute best.

You seem to be a Gambale fanboy yourself. And thank you for telling me what economy picking is, but I don't need that. The term "economy picking" stands for the COMBINATION of alternate picking and sweep picking. It encompasses both of them. Check out the Wikipedia article on economy picking if you don't believe me. And yes, it is true, that he often advocates using three notes per string, at least in the scale fingerings he's using in one of his instructional videos.

Funny you should mention Donna Lee, that's one of the tunes I use for practice right now, using Jimmy Bruno's economy/elbow picking. It works wonderfully. But once again, I have said that this technique doesn't fit everybody. Take your pick. I'm not forcefully trying to impose it on people. If you think otherwise you're wrong. Stick with your own technique if that suits you better. I simply don't get enough precision using a moving wrist and occasionally moving forearm. Your mileage may vary.

EDIT: I should perhaps have written "odd number of notes" rather than "three notes" per string in Gambale's case. Anyway, he is surely much stricter than Jimmy Bruno in this respect.

EDIT: Nitpicking is fairly OK to me as long as the statements are correct.

[AndyPollow42]

I like picking with the wrist and changing strings with the whole arm from the shoulder. Its really awesome when you get a feel for it. No elbow. And you get some wild arpeggio sweeping from the whole arm from the shoulder. That sounds nice if you lightly palm mute all 6 strings while your sweeping fast.

[sgcim]

Another astoundingly fast jazz player who identifies himself as an 'arm picker' is Vic Juris, although I'm sure he must use other techniques as well.

One thing I've noticed about him is that he uses small bodied 14 inch guitars like the Tom Doyle guitar and a guitar made by Glen McKerrihan which is also small bodied.

I've noticed that I have more facility on my solid body guitars than my 16 inch archtops, could that be the reason Vic Juris plays smaller bodied guitars?
I've never been crazy about his sound or ideas, but his technique is the equal of anyone on the planet.

[GuyBoden]

I tried picking from the elbow exclusively for quite a few months many years back (à la mode Bruno), but I stopped because my arm started hurting, I went back to using my wrist.

[Irez87]

mine came from too much elbow AND upward pick slant... Gonna adopt the oud style method and get my arm farther back on the bout of the guitar (I have long arms). Will explain with pics when arm feels better.

[jzucker]

Another astoundingly fast jazz player who identifies himself as an 'arm picker' is Vic Juris, although I'm sure he must use other techniques as well.

I see more wrist than arm.

[Frank67]

agreed ... especially at 3:41 it looks very wrist picking to me.

[targuit]

I realize that this post is regarding picking with a pick. I occasionally use a pic for certain types of music and tempos, but most of the time I use a classical and hybrid style finger picking approach for jazz. But last night I noted something interesting that I wanted to throw out here for discussion. This might be the equivalent of marveling that the sun rises in the east, but in the traditional classical approach, the right hand is arched over the strings and the fingers address the strings in an almost perpendicular fashion.

What I noted last night playing my son's three-quarter size Yamaha classical guitar is that if I use my right elbow resting on the body of the guitar rim as a kind of fulcrum using a bit of pressure through the elbow and allowing my hand to assume a position more closely parallel to the neck causing the fingers and thumb to address the strings more from the angle a lute player might assume, that the elbow "plant" functions rather like planting your fifth finger on the elevated fingerboard of an archtop. (Recalling the old discussion of whether to pick with the pinky planted or with the wrist 'suspended' in air.)

While this may seem much ado about nothing much, I noted more power in the picking hand. It seemed as though focusing on the right elbow plant as a kind of fulcrum seemed to make the actual picking stronger and more efficient. I think the effect was real, causing me to ponder what design modifications could enhance this mechanism. Factors like body thickness, size, angle and contour could affect or facilitate this more lute like elbow - hand position.

[sgcim]

I see more wrist than arm.

He seems to split his picking into stuff he plays with wrist picking (more intricate lines), and more scale based lines that he shreds with his forearm.
He starts out his solo in this video with wrist picking, but later on, on the scale stuff, he shreds with his arm.
He's followed by Phil Woods, who is demonic at fast bop like Cherokee:

[Irez87]

Look at how far back his arm is on the bout of the guitar, like oud technique. That's the trick to not screwin up yer elbow.

[jzucker]

that looks like 25+ years ago, not long after he was studying with sandole so I'm sure he was playing more with the elbow back them. And sometimes doing those extreme shreds, I can see doing it with the elbow but it sounds stiff when he's doing that and I find the same is true when I do that type of thing. He's a friend of mine and is one of my favorite players of all time. That shred stuff on the 2nd video is not really what I love about him. What I love is that he combines the abercrombie/towner understanding of complex harmonic and rhythmic devices with the swing feel of martino / grant green. I don't think you can isolate a shred example from 25 years ago and make definitive statements about his technique.

He seems to split his picking into stuff he plays with wrist picking (more intricate lines), and more scale based lines that he shreds with his forearm.
He starts out his solo in this video with wrist picking, but later on, on the scale stuff, he shreds with his arm.
He's followed by Phil Woods, who is demonic at fast bop like Cherokee:

[sgcim]

that looks like 25+ years ago, not long after he was studying with sandole so I'm sure he was playing more with the elbow back them. And sometimes doing those extreme shreds, I can see doing it with the elbow but it sounds stiff when he's doing that and I find the same is true when I do that type of thing. He's a friend of mine and is one of my favorite players of all time. That shred stuff on the 2nd video is not really what I love about him. What I love is that he combines the abercrombie/towner understanding of complex harmonic and rhythmic devices with the swing feel of martino / grant green. I don't think you can isolate a shred example from 25 years ago and make definitive statements about his technique.

One of the commenters on the you tube video said that he saw an interview with Vic on a video, and Vic said he was mostly an arm picker.
I saw Vic play a concert with Larry Coryell back in the 90s, and he and Coryell were shredding pentatonic scales on acoustic guitars, and Vic was arm picking back then, too.
I don't know what he uses most now, but on that lesson video, he's not really playing anything technical, just demonstrating the scales he uses.
His fusion shit with Barry Miles and Eric Kloss is pretty scary!