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It's completely fine...again, as long as you understand the little game Pat play's with time about 2 minutes in is as old as jazz itself...
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12-21-2014 09:57 PM
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No. Not parts...it started with a post of a member saying that the whole thing with the metronome sounded off. He, himself, questioned his own perception of it.
Originally Posted by West LA Jazz
I haven't seen this thread being about a bunch of die-hard Methany fans (I sure ain't one) getting all butt hurt than anyone dare question his timing.
If it's an actual conversation, it's worth questioning whether the ability to perceive time (on the listener's part) factors in. And no, EVERYTHING re. time isn't subjective.
I work with volunteer musicians on a weekly basis. They're not jazzers (honestly, neither am I), and things like basic sixteenth note polyrhythms can sometimes baffle them. I can clap or count a rhythm and maybe get a blank stare. Occasionally, I may even get the look which says, "I don't have a clue. Maybe Matt doesn't know either and he's just bluffing". The thing is, their inability to understand it doesn't mean is not real.
It's just sounding a lot like you're pulling the "emperor has no clothes" thing here. You're refusing to address Mr B's discussion of the rhythmic concept he sees there, while calling "butt-hurt hero worshipper"on anyone who dares express their own subjective(?) opinion that Pat is even playing in time.
It starts to look like maybe it's not everyone ELSE being butt hurt.
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Thank you for expounding. I do appreciate your conclusion.
In light of the original comment I piped in about, I’m not sure there is anything I am “refusing” to address per se.
If I understood correctly, Cunamara was saying that there were “sections” of Pat’s playing against the metronome that didn’t work for him. I’m sure that passage was master class worthy. It just didn’t work for said listener. The only issue at hand for me was a man’s right to express whether a certain rhythm was working for him or not… even if that rhythm was being played correctly by a demi god.
Now with regards to me “refusing” to address another poster’s questions regarding “rhythmic concepts”. Thanks for making me aware of them as I must have glossed over them in my “one track" state of mind. I need to go back and read them and pass them on to some of the incredible musicians I am fortunate to quiz from time to time at the Catalina bar and grill. Much worthier thought processes than I have to offer. ;-)
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Both vocally and during his trumpet solo, you'll hear Louis employ the same "play" pat does about 2 minutes in. Pat just hangs with it longer, creating more tension.
It IS "off." But intentionally. And it's a hallmark of jazz.
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I listened to the video thinking that I would be able to help with understanding why something might sound off, as rhythm is something I am very interested in. Except when I heard the video I found that I myself was having some trouble with it. The best way to describe it is that the tempo of the metronome seemed to be fluctuating ever so slightly in a non-musical way. Now assuming I am hearing things correctly, it can't be the metronome so it must be that I am locked into the time of the guitar and from there sensing the deviation with respect to the metronome. It is also possible that the low resolution of the recording combined with the fact that my audio source has had multiple beverages spilled on it, I was not hearing the peaks of the metronome accurately.
But since I don't normally have issues with it, I thought it's likely the performer was just having an off day. I paused the video as it was playing and tried to analyze what I was hearing at that point and shared my observations. To me it sounded like a mistake, whereas to others it sounded like rhythmic play. This is the part that is subjective. To my musical sensibilities I expect that kind of play to be less subtle and more telegraphed. The Louis Armstrong clip sounds wonderful. For me it's like the difference between a sweet quarter tone bend with simply pressing too hard on a string and sending it out of tune.
I found the difference in perception quite fascinating and I don't at all think I am right and others are wrong, especially since almost everyone was disagreeing, and in fact I think it is the context we are adding as listeners that makes a difference. For me that context was other recordings of Pat Metheny with which I never sensed anything unmusical to my tastes. While I wasn't crazy about the music, I respect the musicianship and the attention to detail in the performance and it is something I would listen to for inspiration rather than pleasure. As a result, I wasn't expecting to hear anything I would have issue with. If the recording was of John McLaughlin I wouldn't have even bothered to chime in as that is one player I just don't understand on any level. Now, I haven't actually listened to any of Pat's work since the 90s so it's possible I have forgotten a lot of subtle details. Perhaps he does a lot of subtle rhythmic play that with his band sounds fantastic. Then if I were to hear him play with the metronome my mind would add the missing context and it would continue to sound great.
In the end, I'm not sure where the difference in perception lies. It could also be me seeing him play so motionless that I was expecting a more robotic performance. But I did find thinking and talking about it fascinating
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West LA Jazz - is this the video you're referring to?
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Soto - Yes it is. It's kind of long. Among other things, he talks about other people's attitudes regarding complexity and simplicity music he chose to play etc etc. Not necessarily a direct tie to some of this conversation but informative never the less.
I stumbled on this by accident.
PS: I saw him play live in LA. What's truly scary about this guy is when he plays the piano with his left hand and the guitar with his right hand. How he keeps independent time is absolutely something to behold.Last edited by West LA Jazz; 12-22-2014 at 02:18 PM.
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I don't really disagree with anything you're saying. I just feel like we're having 2 different conversations. if he asks for honest opinion on possibly hearing something wrong , I don't think it's an attack on others' part to actually address it that way. Originally Posted by West LA Jazz
In terms of anyone having the right to their own opinion, I don't disagree with you at all. Everyone's entitled to their subjective opinion. I just don't think that's what the original conversation was about, but I'm probably wrong.
Happy holidays!
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Huh. Stanley is looking a little... different, these days. I don't think I would have recognized him if someone hadn't said something.
He's really talented of course, but his overall approach to the instrument just seems like something of a parlor trick to me. It could be used as a clever diversion for a guitarist to showcase on stage to wow the crowd perhaps, but not the main mode of expression.
Oh well, to each his own.
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Well, this is my opinion: What has Stanley Jordan done to his Afro? Originally Posted by soto
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i often wonder, if i had no idea of HOW he played, if i heard one of Stanley's CD's would i be in to it? Originally Posted by fumblefingers
Doesn't matter really...i have seen him live and was totally entertained the whole show.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
i'd be into it for about one tune, no doubt. i would say, wow, that's sounds different, very interesting!
then tune 2, ....hmmmm OK.
then tune 3..... maaaaaybe time to change the channel.
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Johnny is explaining New Orleans groove which is constantly floating, versus Pat whose backing off and then returning.
The great musicians all have great sense of time, they have ability to play all around the beat, but in time. They make the beat bigger by how they can move in front or behind metronomic center.
Cool hearing Johnny explain it starting at about 1:58 into the video.
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