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This topic is about playing large and difficult chords and changing chords on the guitar and piano.
I have a Beginning Jazz Guitar Book by Jody Fisher and I am going to quote him right now.
"...Some Classical Guitar instructors teach that these movements should be learned like a "choreography" for the fingers, or like a "play" for a football team."
"...Sometimes chords will get gradually easier, but I find most of the time the chord will suddenly "snap" into place. This will also take time so the key word here is patience."
They sound like promising words, but up to this point my muscle memory is still the same. It's slow.
For two months, I have been taking a Jazz Piano course at York University and I have difficulty playing some lush Bill Evans chords. I am so slow.
I am auditioning for Jazz Guitar next year and I am preparing two contrasting pieces for two months so far and I am also slow.
I am also auditioning for Jazz Woodwinds and I play much better on the Alto Saxophone.
Is this problem of mine just a muscle memory issue? Or I don't have potential at all on the piano and guitar.
I need to know some feedback so I can concentrate on the Saxophone. I am not quitting on the piano and guitar, it's just that I need to take more time with what I'm good at.
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11-15-2014 12:55 PM
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Muscles don't have memory, but the fantastically complex human brain retains information about which muscles to move when executing a task.
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What Jody said is true and one day you probably won't even notice it you'll be play and using those voicing without even noticing. First you going to let a couple chord stop you from you dream, gotta get that your not going to beat me attitude because the battles don't get easier as you advance.
For me and chords when I having trouble with a voicing or chord movement the solution comes from just sitting, slowly playing it, and watching how I grab it. One chord recently that was tough I noticed the upper part of fingering was like something I do all the time, so worked on laying that part of chord down first and then drop other finger in I could get it. No big deal, but I only saw it from slowing down and studying what I was doing. Problem is when things get hard make the mistake of trying faster and over and over and over making same mistake. The answer is to slow down even to a snails pace if necessary, then practice doing it correctly over and over, then let the speed slow build up. Perfect practice, makes for perfect play.
As the old say goes.... To learn a lot of information fast, learn a little bit slowly.
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Guy said it. Muscles don't actually have memory. But trust that it takes time and more than a couple of months. I can't tell you how much more time. Factors include age, time spent and general ability to grok it and individual-ness. But the more time spent CONSISTENTLY is the first factor. Everyday. That way the mind has the opportunity to grok. It's the repetition.
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If you reread, he says it's actually some of both. It's just not usually a gradual thing. So don't expect gradual progress. The reps pay off, but it's not necessarily a steady climb; maybe more like terraced stages or mini breakthroughs.
Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
For me, it's different for different chords. They all have an "entry point". Different fingers to start-with etc. Most people have an "order" of planting fingers that they arrive at for certain chords. Try a different-than-you're-used-to order for the difficult ones and see what works best.
By the way, the thing we're talking about when we say "muscle-memory" is a real thing, even if the term itself is inaccurate. You won't have to think about it at a certain point.
Over the years, I taught four kids to ride a bike, and it's a serious PIA. Number four really taught me the secret, but there's no "gradual" on learning to ride a bike. I can remember it as a kid as well. It feels something like "idiot-idiot-idiot-idiot, GENIOUS-GENIOUS-GENIOUS!". After that, you get a little bit better as you go, but the initial breakthrough is absolutely incredible. Once you get it, you can't unlearn it. You can't even "remember" how to fall over.
Sometimes, you can work on building the chord up, a finger at-a-time. It may very gradually start to get a better, and then it does just snap. Steady practice does have a cumulative effect, but it's rarely visible on a "gradual" basis. After this happens a few times as a musician, you don't worry about it anymore or wonder if it's gonna happen. You just put the reps in.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 11-15-2014 at 11:20 PM.
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How are you practicing it? Are you breaking things into small chunks? Originally Posted by Jason Sioco
Start with just one chord fingering. When I'm learning a new one I'll start with my left arm hanging at my side. Then I bring my arm up, finger the chord, strum or pluck it, then let my arm fall back down. Then repeat.
Once I get comfortable, I might set my metronome on 40 bpm and see if I can switch between a relaxed, hanging arm and fingering the chord on each beat. Might be too tough at first, so you could start with every 2 beats. Then gradually speed up.
Now let's say you're working on shifting between two chords. Look at the fingerings and identify which fingers have to move and where. Try to create a smooth shift by identifying ways that you can move between chords without having to do too much.
Maybe post some chords you're having trouble with and we can offer advice.
This also all rests on your having a good foundation of technique that is relatively free of tension.
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This is a piece of advice that I thought was useful when trying to learn how to finger a chord(s).
1. finger the chord.
2. take your hand off the chord and rest it on your knee.
3. as you raise the left hand to finger the chord
4. start to form the shape of the chord before you get to the fret board.
5. finger the chord.
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I think that it's better to learn chords in the context of playing a song rather than a bunch of chord grips in isolation. I've used this with students for years and it has worked very well so far.
The thing in your post that concerns me the most is the term "large and difficult chords". The chords that I learned years ago from the Mickey Baker book were neither large nor difficult with perhaps two exceptions. Most of the chords that I've actually used on the bandstand have been three and four note chords.
My 2¢.
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What I do is take a song and work each pair of chords, until I can play them at faster than performance speed. When I can play every pair effortlessly, I start working on phrases.
The more chords you learn, the easier it is to learn new ones.
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Thanks. I don't think I've heard that before. (If I did, I forgot it.) Great idea. And since I'm learning some new (to me) voicings, I know just what I'm going to practice this on. Originally Posted by thesnowdog
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As the Romans would say, repetitio [est] mater studiorum. Repetition is the mother of learning. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
Btw, "muscle memory" does not refer to memory as in being asked, 'what's the capitol of North Dakota?' and you recall Bismarck. "Muscle memory" refers to motor learning or procedural memory, such as applying the brake with one's foot or twisting a top back on a jar so that it is snug but not so snug it will be hard to open next time.
More subtle examples of muscle memory might include swinging a golf club so as to hit a fade, or using a cue stick to put English on a cue ball.
Some musicians with arthritis suffer doubly: the arthritis hurts and their fingers can no longer do some things they've done "effortlessly" for years. The player knows what he wants them to do, he can even focus intently and urge them to do it like they used to, but sometimes they just can't move that way. This has not happened to me but it is one of the things I fear might as I grow older.
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This is it right here. I don't believe that you should think of chords as stand alone grips when playing jazz. Jazz musician constantly reharmonize chords and add extended notes so fingerings will have to be modify often depending on the chords preceding or following the one you're playing. Originally Posted by monk
Last edited by smokinguit; 11-16-2014 at 10:46 AM.
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Rather than practicing a sloppy version of a difficult chord, and then trying to improve it, consider learning a simplified version (3 notes instead of four, etc.) perfectly, and then learning the harder version. The benefits are that you are not practicing errors, and you learn two versions of the chord. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
I like to learn chords in pairs from tunes I am learning. I work on each pair until I can go back and forth at slightly above the tune's performance speed. This over learning--mastering the change in both directions, and faster--makes it easy to then tackle whole phrases.
Except for the beginning of a tune, you are always moving from one chord to another, so practice that way. Moving to Cm7 from G is not the same as moving to Cm7 from D half dim.Last edited by Jonzo; 11-16-2014 at 02:24 PM.
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I disagree with any suggestion that involves trying to play faster than one can play mistake-free. If you practice mistakes, you will play mistakes. If you learn it right the first time you won't have to spend valuable practice time relearning and correcting mistakes later.
Again, just my 2¢.Last edited by monk; 11-16-2014 at 07:03 PM.
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I'd add onto this, the idea that you are going to be able to "play tunes" before you can even reliably finger the chords is pretty bad advice, IMO. Originally Posted by monk
Telling intermediate players to start focusing on learning and playing tunes is one thing, telling a beginner that is struggling just to fret chords to not worry about it and start learning tunes is kind of silly. If you can't play a ii-V-I without struggling, there's no point to opening the Real Book yet.
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On remembering chords:
Aural memory:
the ability to imagine the sound of the chord(s) without the aid of an instrument, individually and in context.
Informational descriptive memory:
what are the notes, the intervals, note locations/fret and string #, which finger plays what note.
Physical aspects:
Repetition is effective as a practice tool in conjunction with awareness of tactile details of good alignment, relaxation
and the visualizations described in the categories above. Mindless repetition, not so effective.
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a lot of great advice here for you Jason, remember never is slow enough - I mean stay on every chord for 4 beats of 60bpm.
I can add a small trick or two:
when moving to a new chord shape make sure of two things:
1. Your LH thumb stays in touch with the back of guitar neck
2. If any of the LH fingers stays on the same string for 1st and 2nd chord -don't lift him - just slide
hope that helps
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Nah, just pick really easy tunes and take as much time as you need learning each chord pair. Originally Posted by ecj
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I recognize the value of this advice, but I also recognize that great players, in performance, make mistakes. Originally Posted by monk
I think there are different kinds of mistakes. For example, I think we all know that when you're tired / sleepy, you might flub something that you can normally play without a hitch. (The same goes for arriving late and getting into the opening number without properly warming up.) Also, when you're (unduly) nervous, you might botch a line you really do know. And sometimes you get distracted or bored and make a mistake. Finally, if you practice a line too many times in a row, you can make mistakes because your hand spasms.
Again, i do think it is important to take things slowly and get them right. But I don't think people are robots. Think of how often, in the course of conversation, we misspeak. It happens.
One of the most valuable things a young musician learns while performing is that a) mistakes are not the end of the world, and b) if you keep your wits about you, you can carry on and few will have noticed the mistake. Playing through mistakes is one of the essential abilities one needs in order to perform well because mistakes will come. (And not only your own mistakes; maybe someone else makes one---like going to the bridge a bar too soon---and you have to react to that.)
I don't think one should practice mistakes, but I don't think all mistakes have the same source.
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Which would be exactly what I said. Work on the "chord pairs" (I'd call them transitions). Before you can do that, you have to be able to fret each chord in the first place. If you can't do either of those, you'll have to take a few days of practice to get it together before you're going to be able to play through a tune. Originally Posted by Jonzo
1) Work on fretting the chords.
2) Work on the transitions between the chords.
3) Work on the musical phrases (usually 4 or 8 bar segments).
4) Chain everything together into the harmonic roadmap of a tune.
5) Work on being able to replicate all of this in a few different positions on the instrument.
6) Try to transpose the harmonic roadmap into at least a few other keys.
You have to start working on (6) pretty quickly, and it's easier to do that when you see a tune as a thing constructed of little building blocks that you are already familiar with, like ii-Vs, I-vi-ii-Vs, etc.
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No, you actually said, Originally Posted by ecj
"If you can't play a ii-V-I without struggling, there's no point to opening the Real Book yet."
Also, hold off on 5 and 6 until you have a set of tunes together that you can perform. The beginner's short-term goal should be several tunes, each in a different key, or position. Not individual tunes in multiple keys or positions. Use each tune as a platform for learning something new.
I am assuming that most beginners, given a performing opportunity, would like to play Autumn Leaves in C and then Blue Bosa in D, rather than Autumn Leaves in C and then D. Both will help you map the fretboard.
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I hate to go here with you, but do you actually play tunes, yet? Originally Posted by Jonzo
I think beginners should get their brains working on moveable forms as quickly as possible to keep from learning tunes as a set pattern of chord grips if they want to play jazz. Transposition should be a very beginner friendly skill, especially on the guitar.
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It's not linear. You start learning chords, you apply them to tunes. First you hack through however you can, then you try playing the chords in close proximity...
I think there's about 12 chord shapes you just HAVE to know...I think mine are the same as the ones Reg often posts...
You can start playing melodies with almost no knowledge though...but yeah, ecj's got it...there's some prerequisities..."learn tunes" can be lazy advice...
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Just to be certain that I wasn't misunderstood upstream. When I said "learn songs", I meant learn chords in the context of learning songs.
There are plenty of GAS songs like Satin Doll and Honeysuckle Rose that can be learned with a minimum number of grips. Then other songs with new grips can be added to fill in the necessary information needed until the student has everything they need to play. Like Jeff said, 13 grips gets you a ticket to the game.
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I have heard your playing, and you are not an expert. By your logic, you should shut up and wait for an expert to comment. Otherwise, try to support your position with something more than insinuations about my playing. Originally Posted by ecj
Building a repertoire and understanding movable forms and transcription are not mutually exclusive. A carefully selected repertoire, of tunes in different keys and positions, will give beginning students a playable repertoire, and will familiarize them with movable shapes and alternate voicings to use in transcribing later. As you said, many "building blocks" repeat, so learning new tunes in new keys is already laying the groundwork for transcription. Originally Posted by ecj
Put yourself in the shoes of a true beginner. Do you want to know fewer tunes in more keys, or more tunes in fewer keys? Transcription can wait until students can play a short set that brings them joy.
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