What's wrong with my Muscle Memory?

[inwalkedbud]

The audition does not require transcription.

True ... but a quick point ... we're talking about transposition? or transcription. Two different things and I think the issue here was transposition.

And you're right ... "how many tunes can you play?" is not a valid response to every challenge. But... riddle me this... what is the value of transposing the tunes into different keys?

[Jonzo]

Sorry, typing while distracted.

I am assuming your question is rhetorical, as the benefits of transposing have been addressed in this thread.

[inwalkedbud]

Sorry, typing while distracted.

I am assuming your question is rhetorical, as the benefits of transposing have been addressed in this thread.

It's not a rhetorical question and the benefits have not actually been addressed in this thread. It descended into anarchy before any were laid out. What are some benefits?

[inwalkedbud]

Different transitions feel different at different pitch levels because the fretboard isn't uniform all the way down (frets get narrower so the 20th fret feels different then the 4th) ... if he has three audition tunes to work on then learning them insanely thoroughly might entail transposing them into different keys. If you play the same thing over and over again then your brain gets used to making it happen and turns itself off while the hands do all the work. If you switch things around a bit and transpose to keep your brain awake then it's focusing every time you change chords. Jazz is ear music not hand music so anything that gets a tune he's working on into an ear place is a good thing in the short and long term.

Those are all really good things about transposing that are very useful to a beginner. Being able to transpose the tune on the fly, play it in B for a stubborn singer or show off by playing it in a weird key for his audition are counterproductive to his purpose.

It's possible that if you'd considered those things - or perhaps that in your admittedly limited experience you might not know all the potential benefits - before dismissing the concept entirely (or if the proponents of transposing could've laid out their logic a little better rather than becoming offended at the idea that they would have to) then we might have avoided a little bit of a tiff here and gotten some productive advice to the OP

[Jonzo]

Except, I have not dismissed the importance of transposition.

But, despite your explanation, I would choose among the innumerable other challenges that I could pose for myself that could actually be used in my performance, on such a short time frame.

[inwalkedbud]

Except, I have not dismissed the importance of transposition.

But, despite your explanation, I would choose among the innumerable other challenges that I could pose for myself that could actually be used in my performance, on such a short time frame.

Well lovely. Just remember that jazz is intended to be an interactive sort of ear music so being able to hear and really know the changes that are happening around you is a real skill and is always being used in performance. Like ... I don't know ... what if you lose your place during your audition and the band around you keeps going?

So again. Lovely... but now the OP has a little more info to go on.

[Jonzo]

To prepare for the possibility of losing my place, I would strive to reduce the possibility of finding my way back in the wrong key, while maximizing my mastery of the tune in the correct key.

Saying that jazz is "ear music" is a generic non-argument for supporting many positions. I should also listen to birds sing because jazz is ear music. Whether I should do it instead of practicing my audition pieces is debatable. Regardless, I need not cease using my ears while playing in one key; the possible variations are limitless. I still see more potential downside in transposing in the given scenario.

Again this is in regard to a tight schedule and a specific goal. Learning transposition is important in the big picture.

It would be easy enough to do an experiment. Choose two challenging pieces of similar difficulty to perform in the key of C. Practice one tune in C for a week, and the other tune in a different key each day for a week. See how it goes. Now you know the better way to prepare a tune in a week.

[inwalkedbud]

Choose two challenging pieces of similar difficulty to perform in the key of C. Practice one tune in C for a week, and the other tune in a different key each day for a week. See how it goes. Now you know the better way to prepare a tune in a week.

Welp. That's actually how I learn tunes. 1 or 2 keys a day til I get through all twelve. So from experience it'd be the latter. I did that experiment years ago.

[ColinO]

I can think of 3 very good reasons to work each tune in different keys in the context of an audition:

1) the candidate might be asked to play the tune in a key other than the one he practiced in. If I was the adjudicator I would do that to see whether the candidate has that skill and to see how he performed when not in his comfort zone - both valuable information for me as an adjudicator;

2) it's beneficial as a musician to be able to learn this skill. It's also not all that hard on a guitar-I sometimes complain that a piano has it easy since each octave is the same throughout the keyboard, only one of each pitch,etc, but transposition into different keys is way easier on the guitar than it is on the piano (I think anyway since I don't really play much piano);

3) it gives the candidate improved fretboard knowledge as a side benefit - I don't know anyone who would argue that is not beneficial as a guitar student.

4) there are other reasons, some of which have been noted above such as improving one's ear which may be even more important in the long run.

So that's 4. Frankly I can't think of one drawback.

[Jonzo]

Inwalkedbud--Your experience might be different if, like the OP, you were still struggling with gripping a chord. But fair enough, if others duplicate your results, they should do what works best. I am still at the stage where really mastering a tune to performance level in just one key takes all my focus.

ColinO--Your benefits are all real, but do not relate to the immediate requirements of the audition as stated.

So, I have explained my reasoning, and disclaimed my skill level, and somehow the thread did not implode. I think folks can decide for themselves what would work best for them without more comments from me on the subject.

I do appreciate the polite discussion.

[Jonzo]

Duplicate post.

[MarkRhodes]

I think Frank Vignola and Bucky Pizzarelli offer some good advice ("learn tunes") in this excerpt from a clinic.

Perhaps the reason this is stressed more with / to guitarists than it might be to piano players or sax players is that so many guitar players have put in years on their instrument but when someone says to them, "Well, play me something," they can't get from one end of a song to the other because they practice everything BUT tunes.... (Not everyone, but many, too many guitarists are guilty of knowing too few tunes.)

[Archie]

I haven't read all the posts because there are too many, so sorry if I'm repeating what someone has already said.

I fundamentally disagree with Bob Fisher? and some other comments.

If muscles don't have memory, then why can you play and have a conversation with me at the same time? Is it because your brain can cope with both, or it can autopilot one? Yes the second option.

Charlie Parker said it. Learn the changes then forget them. If your not thinking you can't be using your brain, so how is your hands making all those complicated movements?

Muscle memory :-)

Best way to do this (learn chords) is make sure you've got he chord right (never learn something wrong).

Now just switch very slowly but perfectly between two complicated chords. As you do this, you will become faster but only do it, as fast as you can play it properly.

Do this for a few minutes, then take a 5 min break. Come back to it, do it again. After rinse and repeating about 5-10 times, it will be well and truly stuck in there.

I dont agree with Bobs idea at all because the problem is, your fingers go ape, when they move searching for their target. He doesn't move his fingers so how will they become adjusted to moving?

[Archie]

Ok...logic:
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Members making know-it-all statements should post their playing to show that they actually know it all about the topic before nitpicking other players comments to death and derailing threads.

and your logical development of this notion:

Members making know-it-all statements should post their playing to show that they actually know it all about the topic before nitpicking other players comments to death and derailing threads.

...but only if the player calling them out actually plays better than Wes Montgomery.
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You can call that "logic", but there's a better word for it.

You speak with the authority of someone that plays really well. It's condescending and annoying

I'm not picking sides here but i disagree with that statement.

One doesn't have to be a good player to have a great understanding of music. Like an art critic might not be a good painter but he knows a lot more than you or I about what makes a great painting.

Rubbishing someone because they don't play, would be to lose out on the good knowledge (if any) they have.

I'm sure theres a Bruce Lee quote in there somewhere.

[m_a]

I wonder if there may be something missing in guitar instruction. If you were to learn tennis, golf or any technical sport, sooner or later, during lessons with a clever and practical instructor, or in a magazine you would come upon a piece such as "10 keys to a great forehand" laying out the fundamentals. I believe you have that to a degree in classical music, where everything is more codified. When I relearned playing tennis I would collect such pieces and tips from lessons in notebooks and watch games and videos in slow motion and eventually reached a level I wouldn't have thought possible.

Often in guitar books, some instructions will be missing. For instance, you will be given all swing guitar chords, but guidance for the right hand will be very scarce. But swing guitar won't sound quite right without proper right hand technique, which is damn frustrating. And it's a sad fact but many music instructors will eventually assume students who do not get technique easily as "not gifted" which is probably just a poor and lazy assessment in many cases, and a case of the instructor not being very gifted as a teacher himself.

There is a case for seeing the guitar as just any other technical object (it's not called an "instrument" for nothing) albeit a slightly more complicated one. Pat Martino says one should be as comfortable with the guitar as with driving a car, a pretty mundane analogy. A book I found helpful was that famous one by Kenny Werner. A series of articles by Julian Lage was a good complement, as Werner is a pianist. On YT you will find an occasional gem, like the series James Chirillo did on swing guitar (he's one of the only guys on YT who does swing guitar properly IMO) - he plays 8 bars super slow in one of the vids which allowed for precise dissecting into "keys to strumming in the swing style", etc. There is much available by means of instruction these days but it needs to be filtered.

One thing I found super helpful practicing chords, say two consecutive chords, is to actually think where your fingers are going next. Say you're doing a m7 chord with the root in the bass, and are moving to the next grip with the minor third in the bass >> third finger on low E string, X fret, will be going to Y fret on the B string next. Often I will think in pairs, e.g. what the 1st and the 3rd fingers, vs. the 2nd and 4th fingers, will be doing next, it makes it a little easier. It works suprisingly well, like your brain now understands where your fingers have to go and they now "obey". Also helpful was to begin by fretting each grip individually and analysing what would be the natural hand position for that particular grip. Some grips "tilt" more to the right or to the left, the thumb position will be lower or higher on the neck, etc. That "natural", comfortable grip is subsequently sought when playing other chords in sequence. I hope any of that made sense. Most of all, don't give up and believe in yourself.