-
I was listening to one of our forum members burn over the song "Cherokee." Man, his fingers looked blurry at times.
But, as I listened I thought to myself that I don't think he (or any human) could play a clean Jazz passage much faster without the notes sounding too choppy, and their duration being so short that they were no longer enjoyable.
I heard an exerpt from Russell Malone playing "Jingles" from a different thread and I thought the same thing.
Do you agree that there is a maximum speed threshold beyond which it is physically impossible to get notes to ring out sufficiently and with a full sound - at least when playing clean with no effects?
-
09-24-2014 11:13 AM
-
I don't know. I do know as I've gotten faster, my ears have gotten faster.
So when I play at the top of my speed limit, I can hear every note. There are definitely players who play faster, and I can't really make out every note. So I think it might be linked...
-
Is there a maximum speed beyond which notes will sound too choppy or lack fullness?
That's a subjective question. Each reader decides how choppy is "too choppy" and how much fullness is enough fullness. It seems to be a goal among some players to sound choppy so that their peers will know they're employing their "Benson picking" properly, and not cheating with any legato sounding pull-offs or sweeps. Picking speed is to guitar like "What do you bench?" is to gym jocks. I had a friend who was, for a long time, the fastest guitar player in the world, clocked with some computer program that measures the maximum speed of the fastest notes in a phrase. He was fast. He was measured from a recording on the solo section and he had no idea that solo would ever be measured for speed. I think he lost his crown to a non-guitar-player who could play some notes on a guitar faster, but he wasn't playing music, just notes.
Maybe it's ironic, but the faster I became able to play, the less I want to play fast. Last time I saw Bob Conti we joked about fast players. It can become a show-off feat and lose it's musicality. Then there's the whole time thing ... are the notes in the groove? How deep is the groove at high tempos? Is it harder to play fast on a fast tune than to play fast phrases on a medium tune? John McLaughlin can get up there, even on acoustic guitar. I have more fun listening to guys play fast than actually doing it ... it reeks of showboating most of the time.
-
I love hearing fast playing. The faster I am able to play, the faster I want to be able to play. Audiences love fast playing. Nobody ever told Oscar Peterson to slow it down - and nobody would have wanted him to. There's no reason that fast playing can't be musical. In some circumstances, you just need to burn. IMHO.
-
Originally Posted by SuperFour00
Good point. It is truly subjective.
I guess that despite my love of fast lines, I still have my own limits as to when it reaches a speed that is no longer enjoyable or when the notes are clearly discrenable.
-
Also a good point in that listening ability and personal preference (as I mention in the previous post) play a role in determining what might be "too fast." Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
-
Yes. 160bpm ;-)
When train was first invented there were serious concerns that the speed in excess of 30mph would lead to permanent cognitive impairment among passengers - that brain could not process visual information changing at the faster pace than that of a horse carriage.
So I am a horse carriage picker I guess.
-
I don't get the BPM thing. I just listened to Bird's 43' version of Cherokee. I synced BIAB and it say's 260-265 give or take. I could do maybe 280 tops and that would be plenty of additional work.
In reality is that that 140 BPM? Damn I knew I was slow but that's really slow.
Thank God for jazz and speed-metal. Those of us would can't cut it will have to settle for doing other music. It's good we have these scientific tools to measure these things.
-
Listen to a great violinist like Itzhak Perlman. When he plays fast passages the notes seem light and airy, seemingly plenty of space between the notes. Other less talented musicians can play the same thing at the same tempo and it sounds more forced and rushed, the notes sound all crammed together.
It's not about the speed, it's the technique of the musician. Touch and Phrasing apply just as much to fast playing as to slow playing. Playing fast is one thing, having the touch to play fast and musically with a sense of ease and space is another. It's a rare skill. Which is why there are only a few 'shredders' I can stand listening to.
-
A few Joe Pass clips are really on edge. Especially when he plays Donna Lee. It is still very impressive, but I think very highly qualified technical players can make it sound easier. My only concern is that when you spend a lot of time on technique you are not spending time on aesthetics, composition, harmony, rhythm, interplay, etc..
-
^^ This
Fast practice encourages a fast ear
-
That's pretty funny. Who was your friend? I'd love to hear the solo. Originally Posted by SuperFour00
I've heard some pretty insane stuff in metal circles, mostly involving sweep picking. That Jason Becker guy could really rip out the notes in a pleasant way, as can Yngwie Malmsteen (sp?). Some of the Rusty Cooley vids I've seen have been knock-you-on-your-duff incredible.
I used to try to learn that stuff, but realized that the metal guitar sound didn't really fit my voice or aesthetic, so I gave it up. I'm more Bing Crosby than Ozzy. I'd still love to hear someone bring the metal sound and technical bag into a real jazz (not fusion) format. I think those guys could keep up with a sax or piano player.
What is the fastest guitar out there now? I'm always impressed by the physical achievement, but it's hard to know since 90% of the "fasted guitar EVAR" vids on YouTube are fakes.
-
I sometimes compare it to natural language. Is the question a little like asking "Is there a point at which a person is speaking too fast to convey meaning?" The answer would seem to be a fairly obvious "yes."
On the other hand, I suppose a super-fast talking person could be unintelligible, convey absolutely no meaning, and yet communicate boatloads of emotion.
Maybe music is like that.
-
Around 40sec in...holy crap:
And at 1:35.
-
It's good to fly sometimes, however this requires a certain explosive energy to get off the ground, so to speak.
Work has to be done regularly for both right & left hand ,to make things clear and to let the fingers float
- lots of daily houring. Articulation is important.
I love listening to musical players and I love listening to frighteningly fast players and sometimes, rarely, there is the combination of both: the Most High.
_
-
Yes - I'd like to see Rusty do that on an archtop through a polytone with NO distortion, NO compression and more importantly NO legato.
-
Yep, that would be Joscho Stephan. Highly recommended. Check his YouTube clips. Originally Posted by Guido
-
Thanks Frank.
He seems to favor the gypsy swing style of playing, which is a tad easier to get your head around than say working out
lines that pass through or bisect other, more complex harmonic progressions.
I did swing style in my 30's . . . the 1930's
-
Jazz "anti legato" police!
I always giggle at that. I can't tell you how many guys I've met who say "Well, I listen to horn players mostly, man" and then they pick every damn note...
-
(Why?)
Distortion compresses the signal, evens things out so to speak. It's more of an accomplishment with heavier gauge strings to pick & finger; the guitar top further away from the body; a noticeably fatter neck;
and a 'dry' sound coming out the speaker.
I know plenty of guys who can fly in the same key on metal guitars, no big deal. imho
btw, you must forgive my frankness, it's been a tough day and I am new to this wonderful forum.
-
I think the key is to achieve legato whilst still picking every note. It's about getting lines to sound relaxed but played at fast tempi, for me anyway.
-
What's the magic in picking every note? Isn't it a good thing to make use of every possible sound quality that your instrument can produce? Horn players certainly don't tongue every note. Classical guitar players pull off and hammer on all the time. There are a lot of licks that could not really be played without hammer ons and pull offs. Aren't there?
Last edited by ColinO; 09-24-2014 at 04:50 PM.
-
Guido, this is exactly what I was hitting on. When you play clean lines, with no distortion, you have no help from distortion and compression and other aids that Rock guys use. Except for the gain that would come from your volume, you would be on your own. Originally Posted by Guido
Yes - I'd like to see Rusty do that on an archtop through a polytone with NO distortion, NO compression and more importantly NO legato.
-
To me, I find trying to play legato lines whilst picking every note is a lot harder than slurring, so I think I slur my lines to make up for this technical flaw. But, there are instances in which you won't be able to slur your lines so you should be able to play legato both picking every note and slurring. Originally Posted by ColinO
-
A valid point.
I think some guys wanna sound different to the vast majority of players out there, so they pick it all.
Similarily Corea sounds different because he never uses the pedal in lines, but uses plenty of heavily articulated phrases.
It's safe to say that the general consensus is 'smooth' . . . Santana will be pleased.
Reply With Quote
Monk's Mood
Today, 04:25 PM in The Songs