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Another thought I failed to clearly convey was that in listening to that Cherokee improvisation (with a slack jaw, might I add), I thought to myself that this guitarist is not far from making the notes all blur together into one seamless sound, which is probably not humanly possible since there will always be that micro second of no new sound production in which the pick is changing directions.
I just thought to myself that given my listening ability, the man was not far from reaching that point. And I wonder at how many minutes that point would be reached.
Then we could say, at XXX beats per minute, using quarter notes, the average human ear cannot resolve the difference between individual notes. Like a mosquito's flapping wings, it becomes a whine.
Just my thoughts...
Maybe I think too much sometimes...
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09-24-2014 05:02 PM
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Exactly. It's easy to play rock/metal - all in the same key too.
Originally Posted by AlsoRan
More difficult is improvising thru the changes and shading your lines like a musician.
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I wonder if the average human ear can tell the difference between a mosquito and a hummingbird ,
and if the average way is the best route to take sometimes . . .
Thinking is healthy ;-)
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Subjective Opinion:
As far as straight ahead jazz guitar on an archtop using a clean tone - I think it's naturally a slower instrument than piano and sax. The average sax player seems to be able to cut faster tempos with more ease than the average guitarist. Therefore the few guitarists that manage to hang at the 250bpm plus range often sound like they're pushing themselves to the limit, whereas a sax player can still sound quite relaxed.
Thing is, for me the perception of speed seems relative - I'll feel the same intensity from hearing a guitarist play well at say, 220bpm as I do hearing a good pianist at 260. Similar thing for staccato vs. legato. Staccato on guitar often feels faster than legato, even if it's actually a bit slower.
As a listener, most of the time 8th's on an archtop at 210-230 sounds plenty fast for me - got that intensity I dig, while retaining the hipness. 260 plus can often sound like circus music if it's not done well.
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Whether we like it or not, the problem of playing fast with a clean sound is a big factor in why the guitar is either included or excluded from some jazz groups.
Monday night, I played in a big band where they didn't have a guitar part for one tune, so I had to sight read from a conductor part that was written in concert key.
They counted it off at about 380bpm, and I just watched all the sax lines fly by.
There was no way this stuff could be played on the guitar at that tempo.
Even if I hadn't been sight reading, those sax lines would still be unplayable on the guitar.
I'm sure the real guitar part was playable, but horn players (and pianists) have to understand that there are some things we can't do.
I told this to a sax player who led a small rehearsal group I was playing in, and there was silence on the phone for a while, and then he said he had to do something and said goodbye. That was the last I ever heard from him.
I didn't mind, because he was a very unmusical player who couldn't swing to save his life.
When he improvised, he sounded like a beginner, yet he had incredible chops, and could sight read okay.
They just kicked him out of the big band I mentioned before, and everyone said the same thing about him.Last edited by sgcim; 10-05-2014 at 01:54 AM.
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360bpm! that's flying! my limit is 240-250
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If it's jazz it better be fast. Really fast.
I don't care to listen to the speed metal for more than a minute. It reminds me of bees buzzing around my head.
It's angry bee music. With shredder jazz at least it's acoustic.
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Someone, please educate me. Is Bird's 43' version of Cherokee 260 BPM or 130?
OK I assume Bird's Cherokee is 260 BPM. The standard in jazz at this time is what, around 300? That's my guess.Last edited by Stevebol; 09-24-2014 at 07:10 PM.
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True, most other folk do not (or won't) comprehend the uphill struggle of a guitarists technical lair.
And sight-reading sax lines 'live' must be a bit of a challenge at 300+bpm for anyone - my met only goes up to 250bpm
(then again, it's only for a beginner)
However, a big band should be a safe place to shelter . . inside all that sound canvas.
I knew a guy who used to play for a local big band, but he found it very organised & highly structured, like classical music in that way - lacking somewhat in creative freedom.
A bass player I know loves it though!
I don't much like big band music myself . . . makes me wanna
(unless it's an amazing 'conductor')
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Guitarist with better technique generally sound better at faster tempos. I'm not really talking about memorized playing. Just improv on faster tunes. Personally when the feel is lost because of lousy fingering or other technical issues, the resulting sound can get thin or choppy sounding. Out of control.
Although I dig the sound of great players being on the edge, I love pushing soloist sometimes, bring the level of performance up a little. Audiences generally also appreciate these moments.
But like anything to much gets old. I can't take five ballads in a row either. Balance...
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16th notes in the 160's is "Yngwie speed", once you can play that, it's time to start working on other stuff....
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Well - I think that listening to my neighbor doing Harley tuneup.... Originally Posted by ecj
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i agree, except for the legato part. nothing wrong with that. Originally Posted by Guido
Yes - I'd like to see Rusty do that on an archtop through a polytone with NO distortion, NO compression and more importantly NO legato.
but it would not be the same without the sound effects and played on an L5.
his technique is very fast and smooth, but in the end it sounds like a guitar woodshed workout.
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That's a great point and one which I've never even considered . . horn players "picking" every note. Can you even imagine what Bird would have sounded like if he "picked" every note? Or Brownie? Someone mentioned Itzhak Perlman . . he "slurs" almost every note he plays. It really makes me feel better about my own playing and technique. As I've menetioned here many times when the whole speed and the Benson Technique discussions ramble on . . I very rarely pick every single note. Slurs, man . . I love the slurs . . all types of them. When I do choose to pick every note, it's usually for a nuanced effect in the line, as opposed to being main voice of it. I used to feel very guilty about that, thinking . . "heck, man . . I'm just not playing jazz guitar. Maybe I should focus more on fusion". But, bop is what I'm about. And, if my lines say bop . . why should I care if they're picked exclusively, or a mixture of picking and slurring? Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
At times I impress myself with the level of speed and fluency in some of my lines. But, then I remind myself that "yeah . . that was pretty cool. But, I sounded more like a sax player than a jazz guitar player". Nowadays, it really doesn't bother me as much. It goes back to when I first started learning to cover heads of tunes made famous by horn players. That's when I knew "this is how I want my jazz improves to sound on guitar". That's pretty much why I've not attempted to embrace the Benson Technique.
I harken back to a post by Reg, (in a different thread) whom I have the utmost respect for as a jazz guitarist. He said (paraphrasing) the musicality of the notes in the lines you play, matters much more than how you get to them.
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I've worked quite a bit on my picking in the last year or so...the big thing for me is I don't ever want technique to get in the way of an idea.
So basically, I don't usually WANT to pick everything. But if I ran across an idea where I DID, I don't want to be caught short.
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To answer OP question, IMO, that would be at some 75 notes per second where all the attacks and crap would combine in an imaginary open string, tuned to 75Hz and humming as loud as all other notes played at the time combined together. That "string" would be identifable from 20 notes per sec, but would sound fairly low in volume, untill 50 - 60Hz where you could not distinguish it from some electric interference ground loops and hum . It would get louder and louder, up to about 4000 notes per second, where our ears again become less sensitive. BTW 80 and 1000, it would overlap with guitar natural range (of fundamentals), and I'm not sure if the mess would be more distracting than heaaring it separatly, below and above that?.
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Not impressed boring, means nothing to me. Originally Posted by fritz jones
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I liked the shredding, but did not like the pauses in between. Pauses are equaly important as notes.
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reminds me of the saying "space is the 13th note in music. You don't leave it, you play it" Originally Posted by Vladan
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09-26-2014, 07:35 AM #46Dutchbopper GuestI agree. Pauses are equally important. It makes the music breathe Originally Posted by Vladan
DB
Just kidding ...
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Well, not much pauses, but that little I liked better than those in Altura shredder's clip.
Was it sped up a bit? Pitches seam to be correct in regard to frets.Last edited by Vladan; 09-26-2014 at 08:04 AM.
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I think that Altura clip sounds great. It has a "sheets of sound" aspect to it that is almost impossible to get on guitar: it's not about the individual notes or the speed but the effect of the entire phrase. I get that the lines themselves are not that interesting, mostly scales, and not a lot of chromatics and arpeggios that typify bebop, but that's not what makes it interesting to me, its the flow. Comparre it to an organ player rather than to a xylophone player. Now, if his shows/CDs consist of tune after tune of this kind of playing, it would get tiresome, but the fact that he can do it makes me want to check him out.
And since DB posted his "enhanced" clip, I'll link to an old clip of mine that was similarly enhanced SoundClick artist: Paul Kirk - page with MP3 music downloads
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Re Altura, I guess that would be the shreddibg part I liked.
Re your shredding, pkirk, means justified by the goal?
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He is in Chick Corea's band called Vigil. Originally Posted by pkirk
I have found his other clips to be less interesting, with a distorted sound most of the time.
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