Guitar Picking Speed

[rsclosson]

One of my great failings is the ability to pick fast. I have tried for years to be able to play fast passages and pick every note similar to John McLaughlin. I can play with speed when needed but it is because I have been able to develop a good left hand for slurring.


I am a pretty old dog, but believe I can learn some new tricks. Any suggestions?

[docbop]

It's all about genetics, every body is different you have to find your boundaries. Once you know your boundary then find ways to do what you want. John Scofield has talked that he's in similar situation and how he uses hammer on and pull offs to get the speed he wants.

[rsclosson]

It's all about genetics, every body is different you have to find your boundaries. Once you know your boundary then find ways to do what you want. John Scofield has talked that he's in similar situation and how he uses hammer on and pull offs to get the speed he wants.

I am very prone to agree. I have tried for years to coordinate my left and right hand and have never been able to overcome that. Thankfully I do pretty good with hammers and pulls. I guess I just need to play to my strengths.
Still, I do envy the ones who can pick fast.

[ecj]

I am very prone to agree. I have tried for years to coordinate my left and right hand and have never been able to overcome that. Thankfully I do pretty good with hammers and pulls. I guess I just need to play to my strengths.
Still, I do envy the ones who can pick fast.

How do you practice now?

I used to feel the same way that you do, but eventually overcame the barrier by breaking everything down into very small pieces and mastering one at a time. I set the metronome at 50bpm with quarter notes and did something like:

1) Downstrokes on single strings
2) Upstrokes on single strings
3) Alternate picking on single strings starting from a downstroke
4) Alternate picking on single strings starting from an upstroke
5) Alternate picking between two strings starting from a downstroke on the lower string
6) Alternate picking between two strings starting from a downstroke on the upper string
7) Alternate picking between two strings starting from an upstroke on the lower string
8) Alternate picking between two strings starting from an upstroke on the upper string
9) Crossing through groups of three strings with a downstroke on the middle string
10) Crossing through groups of three strings with an upstroke on the middle string

Of course, on all combinations of strings. I just started doing one thing every day at a time, and not moving on until I could nail it in eighth notes at least at 200 bpm. Most of the skills I worked up to 300 bpm, although I can't do the string switching that requires "inside picking" that fast yet.

Then I added in the left hand and worked on basic trills and patterns, etc. It took a while, but it seems to have paid off.

I guess the point being, you are probably running into a stumbling block somewhere in those basic motions, and the only way you'll discover where it is is to break things down into small chunks. The chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

I think some folks pick this stuff up really quickly and never really have to think about it. Others (like me) struggle without a much more focused practice plan. But, I think anyone can get pretty fast (8s at 300bpm) with simple patterns on the guitar if they're willing to address things systematically like this.

[rpguitar]

There are so many picking speed/technique threads here and everywhere...

In high school, a fellow punk guitar player derisively called me "Slowhand" and it wasn't an Eric Clapton reference. It scarred me and left me obsessed with overcoming my picking abilities.

Fast forward to modern times, and I can pick about as fast as I want, but that claim comes with an important caveat. I can't actually play anything truly spontaneous and creative at that "fast as I want" speed. I can play lots of chromaticisms, and patterns I've burned into my muscle memory. Occasionally I add to that repertoire of high speed-friendly licks, so it does evolve.

But my point is that my left hand and, most importantly, my musical ear, can't keep up with the fast picking. So it has limited artistic value in the end. Coordination of the three parts - mind and both hands - really is the key to expressiveness. I'd gladly donate a bit of speed from my picking hand to my fretting hand if I could.

[Patrick2]

[QUOTE=rpguitar;453296]There are so many picking speed/technique threads here and everywhere...

In high school, a fellow punk guitar player derisively called me "Slowhand" and it wasn't an Eric Clapton reference. It scarred me and left me obsessed with overcoming my picking abilities.

Fast forward to modern times, and I can pick about as fast as I want, but that claim comes with an important caveat. I can't actually play anything truly spontaneous and creative at that "fast as I want" speed. I can play lots of chromaticisms, and patterns I've burned into my muscle memory. Occasionally I add to that repertoire of high speed-friendly licks, so it does evolve.

But my point is that my left hand and, most importantly, my musical ear, can't keep up with the fast picking. So it has limited artistic value in the end. Coordination of the three parts - mind and both hands - really is the key to expressiveness.

I'd gladly donate a bit of speed from my picking hand to my fretting hand if I could.

Vis-a-versa???

[dasein]

There are so many picking speed/technique threads here and everywhere...

In high school, a fellow punk guitar player derisively called me "Slowhand" and it wasn't an Eric Clapton reference. It scarred me and left me obsessed with overcoming my picking abilities.

Fast forward to modern times, and I can pick about as fast as I want, but that claim comes with an important caveat. I can't actually play anything truly spontaneous and creative at that "fast as I want" speed. I can play lots of chromaticisms, and patterns I've burned into my muscle memory. Occasionally I add to that repertoire of high speed-friendly licks, so it does evolve.

But my point is that my left hand and, most importantly, my musical ear, can't keep up with the fast picking. So it has limited artistic value in the end. Coordination of the three parts - mind and both hands - really is the key to expressiveness. I'd gladly donate a bit of speed from my picking hand to my fretting hand if I could.

if it makes you feel better, this is very typical among players of all levels.

if you transcribe Coltrane's solo on "Giant Steps" or even just look at a written transcription, you see a lot of the same patterns and licks come up over and over again. Art Tatum definitely had his favorite high-speed licks that you hear over and over again, and Charlie Parker's fast lines tend to be variations of different ideas

the faster you play, the more difficult it is to come up with truly spontaneous stuff. Warne Marsh used to advocate very slow practice because you were more likely to come up with spontaneous ideas.

[rsclosson]

How do you practice now?

I used to feel the same way that you do, but eventually overcame the barrier by breaking everything down into very small pieces and mastering one at a time. I set the metronome at 50bpm with quarter notes and did something like:

1) Downstrokes on single strings
2) Upstrokes on single strings
3) Alternate picking on single strings starting from a downstroke
4) Alternate picking on single strings starting from an upstroke
5) Alternate picking between two strings starting from a downstroke on the lower string
6) Alternate picking between two strings starting from a downstroke on the upper string
7) Alternate picking between two strings starting from an upstroke on the lower string
8) Alternate picking between two strings starting from an upstroke on the upper string
9) Crossing through groups of three strings with a downstroke on the middle string
10) Crossing through groups of three strings with an upstroke on the middle string

Of course, on all combinations of strings. I just started doing one thing every day at a time, and not moving on until I could nail it in eighth notes at least at 200 bpm. Most of the skills I worked up to 300 bpm, although I can't do the string switching that requires "inside picking" that fast yet.

Then I added in the left hand and worked on basic trills and patterns, etc. It took a while, but it seems to have paid off.

I guess the point being, you are probably running into a stumbling block somewhere in those basic motions, and the only way you'll discover where it is is to break things down into small chunks. The chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

I think some folks pick this stuff up really quickly and never really have to think about it. Others (like me) struggle without a much more focused practice plan. But, I think anyone can get pretty fast (8s at 300bpm) with simple patterns on the guitar if they're willing to address things systematically like this.

Thanks! I am going to print this out and give it a try.

[docbop]

[QUOTE=Patrick2;453298]

There are so many picking speed/technique threads here and everywhere...

In high school, a fellow punk guitar player derisively called me "Slowhand" and it wasn't an Eric Clapton reference. It scarred me and left me obsessed with overcoming my picking abilities.

Fast forward to modern times, and I can pick about as fast as I want, but that claim comes with an important caveat. I can't actually play anything truly spontaneous and creative at that "fast as I want" speed. I can play lots of chromaticisms, and patterns I've burned into my muscle memory. Occasionally I add to that repertoire of high speed-friendly licks, so it does evolve.

But my point is that my left hand and, most importantly, my musical ear, can't keep up with the fast picking. So it has limited artistic value in the end. Coordination of the three parts - mind and both hands - really is the key to expressiveness.

Vis-a-versa???

Personally I think that is true for most fast players, when speed kicks in so does cliche lines and muscle memory. I think there are a only few exceptions who at blazing speed are really building lines. Charlie Parker is one of those that at blinding tempo was building lines, you slow down one of his fast solos and there are great lines and melodies. I think that is the key to a great Fast player can you slow down a recording of one of their solos and it it still saying something, or is it just speed for sake of speed.

[rsclosson]

[QUOTE=docbop;453308]

Personally I think that is true for most fast players, when speed kicks in so does cliche lines and muscle memory. I think there are a only few exceptions who at blazing speed are really building lines. Charlie Parker is one of those that at blinding tempo was building lines, you slow down one of his fast solos and there are great lines and melodies. I think that is the key to a great Fast player can you slow down a recording of one of their solos and it it still saying something, or is it just speed for sake of speed.

True. While I admire McLaughlin for his technique, when it comes down to listening for pleasure I turn to Jim Hall and similar players. Hall was never known as a speed freak but what great lines!

Oh and I tell my students all the time that slow practice is king.

[ecj]

Thanks! I am going to print this out and give it a try.

You're going to find out pretty quick where the problem is. A couple bits of advice:

- If you're doing it right, you should be able to come to a complete state of relaxation after every movement at slow speeds. This is how you train your body to relax.
- Make sure you don't have a ton of tension in your shoulders, which is super common.
- Think about where the pick ends up.
- There are some things you can do fast, and some you cannot. The motion you're using to pick has to be one that your hand can do rapidly. For a standard picking grip, I like the "door knob" turning motion. Start out your practice session by just holding the pick and shaking your hand like you are trying to air-dry it to get the feeling of fast muscle response. You can also do side-to-side wrist motion, elbow motion, etc. There are a bunch of different things that work but you have to be able to move the pick fast. I think this is generally under-appreciated when people talk about slow practice.

I started with downstrokes because it made sense as square one. There are a few motions going on.

- You start with the pick hovering above the string you're going to play. I'd suggest starting with the G string, since it's kind of in the middle of the instrument. Are you relaxed, or are you already tense before you even pick?
- The pick comes into contact with the string as you get ready to pick. Again, just relax the pick against the string.
- You use your muscles to pull the pick through the string until the pick snaps over the string and it sounds. Use as little muscle as you can to get it through. Think about where the motion is coming from (shoulder, wrist, hand, fingers).
- The pick comes to rest on the next string (B) and you totally relax.
- You "reset" the pick back over the G string hovering and ready to pick again.

When I was first re-evaluating my technique I'd set the metronome at 50 and do (one movement per beat):

1) Set the pick against the string
2) Pick the string
3) Reset the pick

Aaron Shearer calls this the "prepared stroke" in his books. Then I'd work that up to where I was doing one move per click at 100 bpm. Then I'd drop the metronome back to 50 and change to:

1) Pick
2) Reset

Which combined (2) and (3) into one smooth picking motion. It really helps. If you can't work that up to quarter notes at 300, you've probably identified a big hole in your approach.

[jasaco]

Have you been following the large thread on Benson picking and the offer from JC Stylles to help people get up to speed?

[MarkRhodes]

[QUOTE=docbop;453308]

Personally I think that is true for most fast players, when speed kicks in so does cliche lines and muscle memory. I think there are a only few exceptions who at blazing speed are really building lines. Charlie Parker is one of those that at blinding tempo was building lines, you slow down one of his fast solos and there are great lines and melodies.

I'm not so sure these are different things. Charlie Parker had lots of licks that he used over and over. Thomas Owens breaks this down in his dissertation on Charlie Parker's "technique of improvisation," and he (Owens) re-covers some of the same material in his book, "Bebop: The Music and its Players."

[henryrobinett]

How do you practice now?

I used to feel the same way that you do, but eventually overcame the barrier by breaking everything down into very small pieces and mastering one at a time. I set the metronome at 50bpm with quarter notes and did something like:

1) Downstrokes on single strings
2) Upstrokes on single strings
3) Alternate picking on single strings starting from a downstroke
4) Alternate picking on single strings starting from an upstroke
5) Alternate picking between two strings starting from a downstroke on the lower string
6) Alternate picking between two strings starting from a downstroke on the upper string
7) Alternate picking between two strings starting from an upstroke on the lower string
8) Alternate picking between two strings starting from an upstroke on the upper string
9) Crossing through groups of three strings with a downstroke on the middle string
10) Crossing through groups of three strings with an upstroke on the middle string

Of course, on all combinations of strings. I just started doing one thing every day at a time, and not moving on until I could nail it in eighth notes at least at 200 bpm. Most of the skills I worked up to 300 bpm, although I can't do the string switching that requires "inside picking" that fast yet.

Then I added in the left hand and worked on basic trills and patterns, etc. It took a while, but it seems to have paid off.

I guess the point being, you are probably running into a stumbling block somewhere in those basic motions, and the only way you'll discover where it is is to break things down into small chunks. The chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

I think some folks pick this stuff up really quickly and never really have to think about it. Others (like me) struggle without a much more focused practice plan. But, I think anyone can get pretty fast (8s at 300bpm) with simple patterns on the guitar if they're willing to address things systematically like this.

This sounds very similar to an exercise I do! This will loosen up the wrist and open up the technique to gt those old crusty genetic cobwebs out of the way. I do NOT think you have to give up to genetics.

[woland]

Nobody mentioned Jack Zucker's "Sheets of Sound" so far..... Or switching picks.

[rsclosson]

Have you been following the large thread on Benson picking and the offer from JC Stylles to help people get up to speed?

Yes. Not sure if I want to invest the time to make that drastic of an adjustment.

[pkirk]

if it makes you feel better, this is very typical among players of all levels.

if you transcribe Coltrane's solo on "Giant Steps" or even just look at a written transcription, you see a lot of the same patterns and licks come up over and over again. Art Tatum definitely had his favorite high-speed licks that you hear over and over again, and Charlie Parker's fast lines tend to be variations of different ideas

the faster you play, the more difficult it is to come up with truly spontaneous stuff. Warne Marsh used to advocate very slow practice because you were more likely to come up with spontaneous ideas.

True, but a good solo is more than just an unrelated string of licks. Charlie Parker proves that an incredibly brilliant solo might, in a micro sense, be understood as a string of his pet licks, but this is only one step above the (obvious but vacuous) statement that every solo is just a string of notes. How does the whole solo hang together?

Clearly at fast tempi you're going to have to rely on muscle memory/licks, but you can still say something profound by your use of millions of other ingredients, including space, dynamics, dissonance, phrasing, articulation, group interplay, etc.

[KennyH]

My humble suggestion would be try Robert Conti's Source Code DVD called The Precision Technique.

Nineteen melodious exercise to get you up to speed. (Pun intended)

Exercises are demonstrated and you get the exercises in print form as well.

All you need is the discipline and determination to persist... you will improve your speed.

Give it a look at his site and see if it is worth your time and effort.

I hope that helps... and take care and play well.


KennyH

[markf]

edit

[woland]

My humble suggestion would be try Robert Conti's Source Code DVD called The Precision Technique.
Nineteen melodious exercise to get you up to speed. (Pun intended)
KennyH

Looks nice indeed:

[ecj]

Mark is a Benson picker these days :-)

Come join us on the dark side! Resistance is futile!

[yaclaus]

What exercise is that? Sounds great!

[MarkRhodes]

Looks nice indeed:

O my God, is that me? So s-l-o-w! But I do like that exercise and some others from that book. I was using Conti's .38 Jim Dunlop nylon pick. (When you order "Precision Technique," he includes a couple with the book/DVD.) Using that for about a year made switching to a Fender Medium seem real clunky at first. (I have to remind myself somethimes that most people taking up Benson picking are coming to it from using a much thicker pick. The .38 is so thin, you can see it flatten again a string and then "snap" across it rather than displace it, which is what a heavy pick does.)

I should do those exercises again with the Fender Medium and Benson picking technique!

[MarkRhodes]

Mark is a Benson picker these days :-)

Come join us on the dark side! Resistance is futile!

I wonder if a poll on Benson picking is in order.

What might be some options:
1) Heard of it, never tried it, not gonna.
2) Messed with it some once, no big deal.
3) I'm thinking about giving this a try
3) I'm working on it now
4) It's what I do and I'll never to back to the standard grip...

[woland]

I wonder if a poll on Benson picking is in order.

What might be some options:
1) Heard of it, never tried it, not gonna.
2) Messed with it some once, no big deal.
3) I'm thinking about giving this a try
3) I'm working on it now
4) It's what I do and I'll never to back to the standard grip...

I do not think it covers all options. For example I play with pick angled in 11-5 o'clock line but I do not turn palm of my hand upward. So it is Benson'ish.