Guitar Picking Speed

[MarkRhodes]

Thanks - I went rather methodical - raided the pick stand at Guitar Resurrection and walked out with 12 different thin picks. Dunlop 38 is like trying to fighting off grizzly bear with pointy cushion.... there is definite frustration factor.

Yeah, the .38s flex like mad. They don't really pick through (-displace) the string. The whole idea of "heavy-picks-equal-faster-playing" starts from the premise that the pick displaces the string. A thick is good for that. The super-thin pick DOES give when touches the string but then snaps over it. You can play with a much lighter touch. And there's no way to get something so thin "caught" in the strings.

But it does taking getting used to. And they're not for everyone.

[woland]

Yeah, the .38s flex like made. They don't really pick through (-displace) the string. The whole idea of "heavy-picks-equal-faster-playing" starts from the premise that the pick displaces the string. A thick is good for that. The super-thin pick DOES give when touches the string but then snaps over it. You can play with a much lighter touch. And there's no way to get something so thin "caught" in the strings.

But it does taking getting used to. And they're not for everyone.

Tried .38 today at the rehearsal. Man.... I like to open solos with couple accented notes and with that flabby paper thing I could tell my bandmates looking at me funny - "wha? did you just play a note?". I have some Clayton 38s coming - we'll see if that makes a diff.
I guess my biggest issue so far is tone - thin pick is bright - I can't do pick+fingers and I cannot switch between pick and fingers without constantly fiddling with the tone.
But I am willing to invest some time - it is good to get yourself way from one groove - been playing with thick picks for a while and my technique stagnated - I think it will be good to play some etudes (Galbright or Fishman) with thin pick.

[rsclosson]

I've been using 3.0mm Dunlop Big Stubbys for years. They just feel right to me and I can use a very light touch. Every time I try something different, it just feels wrong. Probably another reason I am not a good candidate for the Benson picking.

[MarkRhodes]

Tried .38 today at the rehearsal. Man.... I like to open solos with couple accented notes and with that flabby paper thing I could tell my bandmates looking at me funny - "wha? did you just play a note?". I have some Clayton 38s coming - we'll see if that makes a diff.
I guess my biggest issue so far is tone - thin pick is bright - I can't do pick+fingers and I cannot switch between pick and fingers without constantly fiddling with the tone.
But I am willing to invest some time - it is good to get yourself way from one groove - been playing with thick picks for a while and my technique stagnated - I think it will be good to play some etudes (Galbright or Fishman) with thin pick.

Yeah, it's not a good idea to spring such a tonal change on your band mates like that. It takes awhile to get used to a thinner pick. You need to try it out while home alone, sense how it feels, how it sounds, the whole thing. If you go with a thin pick with the band, you'll have to up your guitar volume because a real-thin pick just won't produce much. At all. That's not how it works. That's a deal-breaker for some people.

[woland]

Yeah, it's not a good idea to spring such a tonal change on your band mates like that. It takes awhile to get used to a thinner pick. You need to try it out while home alone, sense how it feels, how it sounds, the whole thing. If you go with a thin pick with the band, you'll have to up your guitar volume because a real-thin pick just won't produce much. At all. That's not how it works. That's a deal-breaker for some people.

I think I will use it as technique builder - I just ordered Conti's "Precision Technique" DVD and will work my way through it. I did some back and forth switching between very thin picks and my regular 2.5-4mm V-picks and I can tell that there is beneficial side to practicing with thin picks - you develop better "touch" (for lack of better word) - something that you mentioned too.

[docbop]

Thanks to some budget changes I'm taking lessons again. I had a picking question that somehow led to talk on fast players. The things pointed that are important as posture and most important is relaxation. Said watch any of the fast players like Wes, McLaughlin, Martino, they are very relaxed when playing and its required to play fast you can't have tension.

So thought I'd add that nugget to the thread.

[woland]

The things pointed that are important as posture and most important is relaxation. Said watch any of the fast players like Wes, McLaughlin, Martino, they are very relaxed when playing and its required to play fast you can't have tension.

I discovered it indirectly when I bought my first V-pick - they are made from acrylic that becomes slightly sticky when you hold it in your fingers. The final effect is that you can relax your hold quite a bit more than with many other type of pick's materials. Relaxed grip translates into relaxed wrist, forearm, shoulders. YMMV

[docbop]

Thanks to some budget changes I'm taking lessons again. I had a picking question that somehow led to talk on fast players. The things pointed that are important as posture and most important is relaxation. Said watch any of the fast players like Wes, McLaughlin, Martino, they are very relaxed when playing and its required to play fast you can't have tension.

So thought I'd add that nugget to the thread.

Got some more info I thought I'd add.....

The Leavett Modern Method book has Speed Study's but no explanation how to approach practising them. They are very simple scale patterns that are simple so they can be memorized quickly. By memorizing a simple pattern that removes any mental stress that could come from sightreading or other technique issue. Then you're free to play the pattern as fast you can and while doing it focus on your breathing to keep it relaxed. Check you shoulder position are they relaxed and your posture in general. Once you can play the exercise completely relaxed, then kick the metronome up and repeat working to play it relaxed.

Thought that would be of interest on why the studies are simple patterns and how to practice them.

[MarkRhodes]

I agree witch docbop---and so many others---that when it comes to picking speed (among other things), tension is the enemy.

[MattC]

I've been using 3.0mm Dunlop Big Stubbys for years. They just feel right to me and I can use a very light touch. Every time I try something different, it just feels wrong. Probably another reason I am not a good candidate for the Benson picking.

I use Big Stubby picks too, since a friend hipped me to them about 2 and 1/2 years ago. I use 3.0 mm mostly, and keep a few 2.0 mm around as well. The lighter ones I seem to wear down and/or chip more easily. Both they both feel right to me.

I am certainly lacking in speed, but have made some progress over the last couple years. I think the right hand exercises like ecj posted are useful, but I only do a little of that kind of stuff. Lately I'm spending days on end practicing the same lines over and over, breaking down the little 3, 4, 5 note fragments. Doing this helps me analyze weak areas and drill them. A few I've noticed that stand out:

Alternate picking with the downstroke on a higher string and upstroke on a lower string. Feels weird because obviously the pick is moving in the "wrong" direction to come back to the lower string. I suppose that's the point of doing repeated upstrokes in that situation (reverse sweep? economy? still don't know the terminology). But obviously there are plenty of players who have gotten this move under control using strict alternate picking at fast tempos.

String skips. This is just something that always needs work, although I've gotten better at it. It's nice to be able to play large leaps, especially cliches like the third of a dominant chord (leading tone) up a 7th to the 9th (or flat or sharp 9th) of the same chord. Gotta skip strings for stuff like that (or shift way up the fingerboard landing on the 4th finger, which is risky). Never played those moves 5 years ago.

As far as two hands coordinating, I find picking up my left hand fingers sometimes lags behind my right hand. Especially the 3rd and 4th fingers. Also sometimes when mixing repeated pitches with non-repeated pitches in a line. So one exercise I do:

-Finger any note with the 4th finger. I'll say D, 7th fret, 3rd string. Play 4 consecutive 8th notes on that pitch, followed immediately by 4 descending chromatic eighths starting on the same pitch (i.e. D-D-D-D D-Db-C-B)

I often find my right hand can do this quicker than the left. As if my right hand can burn on those repeated pitches and then my stupid left hand is caught by surprise: "Oh, the pitches are moving now!" So my thought is, why spend lots of time picking as fast as possible on an open string with just the right hand when the left hand can't hang? I do still do some right hand only stuff though.

Not that these issues are going to be the same for you, but I think the point is, keep zooming in on your little technical flaws and addressing 'em.

[Irez87]

Roger,

Cool to see you on this forum, we share a love of Eastman guitars. In terms of practicing play fast, my hang ups came from not feeling long chunks of time. When I practice playing up, I set the metronome as slow as I can and have each click as the downbeat of every two measures or every four measures.

I think it was Hal Galper who said that you can only play as fast as you can hear. Every day, I have been ear training to get myself to hear as fast as possible. The process is slow, but it has taught me that technique is rooted more in the inner ear than the hands.

In terms of techniques for picking, check out Jimmy Bruno's book on Picking Technique. I use a variation of free hand technique, but my picking comes from a combination of small muscle movement from the forearm rotation, and elbow (as opposed to Bruno's lightning elbow of doom). The key is to maintain a slight arch to the wrist of the right hand and keep loose as with everything.

All that being said, those Coltrane changes still elude me.

Roger-- I brought my Eastman Uptown up to Woodstock for a guitar make over. I am getting a sweet custom bone bridge, a new nut, and fret leveling done to my baby. I will have to record my guitar once the work is done!

--Alex

[sgcim]

For me, the goal of practicing for speed is to be able to sound relaxed at whatever tempo I'm improvising at.
The fun part of playing jazz is creating on the spot, and the better technique you have, the easier it is to get to the things you hear, feel, conceive, etc...
Some musicians we think of as great improvisers may not have even been improvising.
Pepper Adams was fired from the Miles Davis Quintet for playing what Miles was 'improvising' every night, down an octave, during Miles' solos.

[ecj]

Pepper Adams was fired from the Miles Davis Quintet for playing what Miles was 'improvising' every night, down an octave, during Miles' solos.

Haha, that's an awesome story, if true.

I'm starting to appreciate the fact that a lot of the greats did not "improvise" in the way it is taught in jazz school (everything different, every time).

[MarkRhodes]

Some musicians we think of as great improvisers may not have even been improvising.
Pepper Adams was fired from the Miles Davis Quintet for playing what Miles was 'improvising' every night, down an octave, during Miles' solos.

Never heard that story before. Very interesting....

[MarkRhodes]

Haha, that's an awesome story, if true.

I'm starting to appreciate the fact that a lot of the greats did not "improvise" in the way it is taught in jazz school (everything different, every time).

Joe Pass said he wasn't making it up off the top of his head. My favorite definition of improvisation is 'the spontaneous reorganization of known material.' (I forget where that is from. Does anyone know?)

[woland]

So it has been almost a week experimenting with Conti's Precision Technique book.
Still getting Study #1 up to speed - but I have to say that 0.38 paper think pick is far more natural to me now.
I prefer one that is tad thicker - 0.46 or so. I also bend them slightly along the axis of symmetry. Gives them a bit less snappy feel and more control. Overall the thing that bothers me the most is not mechanics but certain lack of expressiveness with thin pick - everything has that bright chirpy feel to it.
I also restrung my Excel with Rotosound Monel Top Tape 12s. Made big difference (against Chromes).

[Flyin' Brian]

Jim Hall watched speed demon Tal Farlow when Tal was with Red Norvo. He said to himself (paraphrased):

"I could practice 24 hours a day and never be able to do that. So find something you CAN do dummy and do it as well as you possibly can".

Wise words indeed.

[MarkRhodes]

So it has been almost a week experimenting with Conti's Precision Technique book.
Still getting Study #1 up to speed - but I have to say that 0.38 paper think pick is far more natural to me now.
I prefer one that is tad thicker - 0.46 or so. I also bend them slightly along the axis of symmetry. Gives them a bit less snappy feel and more control. Overall the thing that bothers me the most is not mechanics but certain lack of expressiveness with thin pick - everything has that bright chirpy feel to it.
I also restrung my Excel with Rotosound Monel Top Tape 12s. Made big difference (against Chromes).

I used the .46 for awhile too. (I'm surprised Dunlop offers two picks that close in size, and they're both the same color!)

I like exercise #1 from that book, though now I play it without picking every note. (I can play it that way and have over a hundred times, at least, but now I'm going for something different.)

About the expressiveness with the super-thin pick, I think that is the deal-breaker for a lot of guys. I like the Fender Medium now and think I'll be with it for awhile.

[MarkRhodes]

On his teaching site, someone once asked Jimmy Bruno about developing picking speed. His take was that speed wasn't at the top of the list of things to worry about, adding, "You only need to be able to play as fast as you need to play." Yogi Berra couldn't have said it better.

Someone told me that Howard Roberts said, "You only need to play as fast as the fastest song in your repertoire." If that's a bebop tune north of 300 bpm, well, you gotta hang there, but if you're more likely to be playing swing tunes at 150, it's a different orbit.

I appreciate speed. I would like to blaze for the sake of blazing. But day in and day out, it's more important for me to add tunes to the rep, work up new intros and endings, experiment with turnarounds, and add some 'core language' to my trick bag than it is to obsess over speed.

[MarkRhodes]

Practice time is limited, and I think I get more bang for the buck by developing fluency on things I'd want to hear in a tune. My two cents . . .

This debate goes back and forth. Generally, it is best to work on things you would play for someone else. But before you get many chances to play for other people, you need to develop your technique. Those few exercises are good at working all the fingers---they really give the pinky a workout---and develop finger independence. When I start the day with a few of those exercises, I tend to have no trouble with anything else I play.

[sgcim]

Someone told me that Howard Roberts said, "You only need to play as fast as the fastest song in your repertoire." If that's a bebop tune north of 300 bpm, well, you gotta hang there, but if you're more likely to be playing swing tunes at 150, it's a different orbit.

I appreciate speed. I would like to blaze for the sake of blazing. But day in and day out, it's more important for me to add tunes to the rep, work up new intros and endings, experiment with turnarounds, and add some 'core language' to my trick bag than it is to obsess over speed.

This is a very good point.
I only practice technique exercises so I can hang with the horn and piano players at whatever tempo they hang at.
If they never played above 300bpm, like one world class Bill Evans-inspired pianist I play regularly with, I wouldn't care about being able to solo at those tempos, but tomorrow night I play with a big band that thinks nothing of sight reading modern charts at 300 or more, and I'm also required to solo on them.

There's a chance I could be playing in the future with an internationally known horn player, who is known for being able to burn at tempos up to 400bpm(!), so I've managed to get my improvisational speed up to 340bpm, but only on
'good' days.
I used to blow with just the metronome, but I didn't realize I was cheating at faster tempos until i started playing along with Aebersold backing tracks like "Burnin'!"

[rsclosson]

Just want to clarify before we get too far off base. I can actually play as fast as I want to now. I have never been interested in becoming a speed player. I would just like to be able to pick every note during a fast passage. I am quite capable of fast passages now by slurring a lot. Just want to add the ability to articulate like McLaughlin or DeMeola.

[woland]

I'm faster with the Benson technique. (Yesterday I posted a vid on Philco's Benson picking thread in the Player's forum, so you can see / hear for yourself. It's spotty, but it's pretty danged fast in places. I'm ironing out the wrinkles, focusing more on groove now.)
Conti is incredibly fast his way. (I like his super-thin picks too. Took me awhile to get used to them but they really helped me develop a lighter touch. I'm now having to teach my left hand to play with a lighter touch...) And I use a lot of lines I learned from Conti. You won't hear me say anything against him. But for me, Benson picking is much faster.

Mark, could you elaborate on this a bit? If I understand Conti's approach - he suggest combining wrist motion with the finger in-out "writing" motion. When I started playing throu his exercises I played in a quasi-Benson'ish way with pick-play at 11 o'clock. At that angle the "writing" pat does not buy you anything. But if you switch to pick at 1-2 o'clock then you can actually play quite fast. The main difference is that you actually need pick that is pointy to execute it - where as for pick at 11 o'clock more rounded shape was preferable.
So could you explain how is Benson picking faster? I think that at this point I do not understand Benson picking at all.

[MarkRhodes]

Mark, could you elaborate on this a bit? If I understand Conti's approach - he suggest combining wrist motion with the finger in-out "writing" motion. When I started playing throu his exercises I played in a quasi-Benson'ish way with pick-play at 11 o'clock. At that angle the "writing" pat does not buy you anything. But if you switch to pick at 1-2 o'clock then you can actually play quite fast. The main difference is that you actually need pick that is pointy to execute it - where as for pick at 11 o'clock more rounded shape was preferable.
So could you explain how is Benson picking faster? I think that at this point I do not understand Benson picking at all.

This is a tough nut. To be clear, Benson picking is faster for me. (Among others.) There are those who play as fast, or faster, with a conventional grip (-or at least with a decidedly non-Bensonian grip.)

Conti is very fast. If I were that fast, I wouldn't worry about going another way.

But for me, the conventional grip produced inconsistent results. (Perhaps as Shakespeare almost said, "The fault lies not in the grips but in ourselves...")

The Benson grip allows for more consistency and less wasted motion. There's a vast thread on this subject in the Player's section and several people who use this grip and are far better than I am will do their best to answer any questions you ask.

[West LA Jazz]

Does this guy have it right? Re: The Benson picking technique?