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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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08-21-2014 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Originally Posted by woland
Conti is using one in this clip. You can see it around 1:30.
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Back to the idea of a Benson poll. I think one might be useful.
Let's say there are five options (and people may choose only one.)
I think one should be Not interested, never tried it, not for me. (That's not the suggested wording but you get the point. Strong NO vote.)
And another should be 'That's how I play and I have no plans to change.' (Strong Yes / positive / I'm sold on it.)
Another should be 'I'm giving it a go now.'
That leaves two other options. One might be some version of "I'm thinking of giving it a go."
And another might be some version of "I tried it but it didn't work for me."
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Mark,
Which method gave you more speed and accuracy?
Conti's or Benson's?
Which would you recommend?
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Originally Posted by KennyH
Conti is incredibly fast his way. (I like his super-thin picks too. Took me awhile to get used to them but they really helped me develop a lighter touch. I'm now having to teach my left hand to play with a lighter touch...) And I use a lot of lines I learned from Conti. You won't hear me say anything against him. But for me, Benson picking is much faster.
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Okay, I started a poll in the Chit Chat / Introductions forum. Please vote. (It's asking about your view / experience of Benson picking, so if you DON'T use it, your vote is just as important as if you do!)
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Originally Posted by Richb
lolololololol Rich, You're so predictable. Of all the absurd comments you've got to your credit here at JGF. This one really has to be the most amusing.
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Originally Posted by Patrick2
I wouldn't say always, though. There are many tracks where he is definitely in the groove.
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Originally Posted by ecj
My reply was to the comment that "Conti never played a single note in time ever". He knows that's not true and we all know that he knows it's not true. I do agree that when Conti is trying to be flashy in a teaching vid . . he sometimes gets outside the pocket. I think that would happen to Conti with what ever pick he was using. But, really . . who doesn't? (George Benson not withstanding) ;-)
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Originally Posted by ecj
Time seems fine to me here. Opens with Conti playing solo on an 8-string and then the band comes in.
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If you tap your foot to that intro, you'll hear he's pretty rock solid in time.
But once the band comes in, I have to disagree.
Mind you, I'm not a stickler that everything has to be played in pocket...unless it's clearly a "pocket" tune.
The way the drummer plays here, it doesn't allow for much wiggle room.
Anyway, back to speed...
My take, after a semi-crisis with it.
There's nothing better about any specific style, but your style has to work for you, to the point of where its not nagging you. I do think we have physical limits, but I also think few of us are anywhere close to them because we haven't really worked on it to that end yet.
I think wherever anybody's at, they can get faster, with work.
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Originally Posted by pkirk
This becomes important when novices need to learn something they are often encouraged to learn but not told how to learn: "leave some space in your solos." It is educational to compare several Charlie Parker solos on a common set of changes (-rhythm changes, for example) and see where he tended to leave space. It makes more sense when you see the forumlae he went to after the pause and you hear the pause as a set-up for that.
Earl Hines talked about how Diz and Bird brought their practice books to gigs and in between sets were going over the books looking for things that might fit certain parts in the tunes they played. Bird later told Paul Desmond "it was all done with books." An overstatement, but it shows how much attention Parker paid to how lines laid against certain changes and made a point to use those lines in those places.
One of the great insights of Owens into some of Parker's long lines is that they are carefully built on lond scalar descents. (That is, there is a long descending line that you don't notice as such because of all the surrounding notes, but it seems to be a key in how Charlie build some of those incredibly long, flowing lines. It took a tremendous amount of diligent work for him to learn how to do that.)
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So maybe... there's picking technique, a few styles etc.. some better than others.
And then there is application of a picking style, actual playing.
Rhythmic application of your picking... is not just rehearsed or memorized performance of whatever. Jazz has a very different style of performance... you need to be able to play what you haven't memorized, or practiced. Your technique needs to not breakdown when your stretching your limits of what you've played before.
Being in the pocket, groove etc... is more than just performing the notes in straight or swing time.
I tend to use the word Form with most aspects of performing... and application of your picking technique should also have Form...
-the actual picking patterns, your phrasing should be able to repeat, without you needing to consciously think about it.
-there is also Form to how your picking technique keeps your feel in the pocket... if your forcing your playing, generally your picking, the rhythmic application of your melodic playing, anyway if your having to force your picking technique to get what you hear or want to play out.... generally there's not much chance your going to be locked into any feel, pocket groove etc..
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Originally Posted by Reg
Same thing with scales or a new fingering of an arpeggio. First you get it down. Then you get it down in time. Then you play around with the time. Then you screw up and go back to getting it down in time again! ;o)
Right hand technique is a big subject but each part takes work to get the mechanics right--whether is a New Orleans style funk comp, hammers and pull-offs, what have you----and once you do, you work on the timing. it's hard to work on two things at once. (First: how do I do this? Second: How do I do this with a good time feel?)
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Hey Mark,
sounds pretty logical.... But I've always had a different approach. I don't learn things slow, I do the research, understand the mechanics, methodologies or theoretical or what ever...get to the point where I understand whatever I'm getting together.
Then I dive in full speed ahead . Sometimes the first few performances might be rough... But the feel is usually in the pocket, and generally that gets me through those first technically rough first few performances.
If I can't hear or feel what I'm trying to play...it's not going to happen.
Ive always had this approach, at least with jazz technique etc...
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Originally Posted by Richb
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Originally Posted by Reg
It wasn't apparent then because I was a kid playing mainly slow, strummy things. By the time I realized my technique was a huge problem, I found it a miserably tough set of bad habits to break. I'm still working on that! I wouldn't recommend going about things the way that I have. But I can't go back and start over, so I have to work from where I am. Like that old song by The Band: "Whoa, you don't know the shape I'm in!" ;o)
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Hey Mark... thanks.. but I don't think I have any magic skill set or approach. I just keep it simple.
I try and not force what technique or skill...or previous understanding of some aspect of playing that I already have developed to be the only way I perform something.
If how I'm trying to play something doesn't work... I logically think about it...and make changes. Usually requiring a few steps backwards. But I don't try and force different technique or harmonic/theoretical understandings to perform everything.
While I was young, I always checked out the players who could play whatever music I wanted to cover. Still do.
And I believe that performing up tempo music at slow tempo doesn't work that well. Obviously any method will eventually work if you stay at it long enough. But the slow memorize and gradually get up to tempo... works for performance of memorized music much better that performance of improved jazz.
Everything in music is subdivided... how we deal with those subdivisions... or are aware of them is what gives different styles of music their feel... what makes them lock into their groove. There is no slow, there are just less attacks.
Loop a four bar phrase at 240...or faster. one chord, no chord, whatever..
-play one downbeat on beat one of each bar. Accent that attack on beat one of each bar.
-then play the upbeat of beat one of each bar, but don't feel or count that... up beat or + of one ...as the target, play off of the downbeat of the downbeat of one you started... play off that accented downbeat... it will become a feel.
Now do the same thing but this time play the... + or upbeat of beat four of each bar. Still use the original accented downbeat one from first example for reference... your playing off the downbeat, but this time your anticipating the accented downbeat of one. and one.... and one...and one etc...This will also become a feel.
See how you pick these examples... try different picking patterns, see how your picking influences the feels... obviously you can add more beats and variations and begin to develop feels at faster tempos.
Sorry, trying to give examples where there are choices at real time tempos.
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Lots of great info on this thread. I am using it to extrapolate a method to improve my left and right hand coordination. Thanks!
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Originally Posted by woland
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
With the picking resistance gone I need better control over my hand - I relied on resistance - the bounce that you get of strings to help stop hand movement. So there is a lot to learn. Tonewise I have to say I will need to do something about the snappy part but at the very least it does not push my d'A past the "linear range" - into thuddy percussive buzzy part. Which is very nice.
Thanks again - will do some pick research and report results. Dunlop 38s are seem tiny pit fragile - I have those, 46s and 50s. I need to research Clayton ones too (Ultem?)
Thomastik Jazz BeBop 12 set - $10.
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