tuck andres and the unbearable importance of picking angle

[Groyniad]

hi folks

in his quite well known discussion of picking issues tuck andres stresses the importance of what he calls 'picking angle'. i had never put any thought into this topic - but tuck has convinced me that it is a big deal. i'm wondering if people recognize it - or are familiar with it - employ it etc. etc. and if they do - there's a particular feature of employing the technique that i want to ask about.

if you change the 'picking angle' so that downstrokes become (to a certain degree) instrokes and upstrokes become outstrokes (the unusable limit of this would be a downstroke that moved in a straight line from the string to the top of the guitar and an upstroke that moved in a straight line directly away from the top of the guitar) - the tone changes in characteristic ways - but the big deal is that you don't have to lift the pick away from the strings at all - but you can start to use the strings to stop the pick's movement - so you don't have to do so much to get the pick away from the struck strings and back onto a string that you want to strike.

it feels like a whole new way of playing to me - andres stresses that it makes it much easier to hit the strings you want to hit when you want to hit them. that's a big deal on the guitar - a point he is enlarges on in an engaging way.

it does produce the tiniest bit of new percussive string noise too.. (which one could be a bit too fussy about - i suspect the benefits of the technique could easily outweigh this small issue.)

anyway - have i managed to describe it clearly? do people use this technique (perhaps without thinking about it)? has it helped?

thanks!

[ecj]

Go to the Player's section and read Philco's thread about Benson picking on a WesMo. It's all been covered there.

[MarkRhodes]

Go to the Player's section and read Philco's thread about Benson picking on a WesMo. It's all been covered there.

Yeah, that's a great thread, nearing 10,000 replies. Lot of good material there, and the discussion is ongoing.

[Phiberopttic]

Did Tuck write an article or something that you could share?

I've been frustrated by my right hand picking for YEARS... changing picks, changing hand position, changing angles, giving up and using fingers... very frustrating.

[monk]

Did Tuck write an article or something that you could share?

I've been frustrated by my right hand picking for YEARS... changing picks, changing hand position, changing angles, giving up and using fingers... very frustrating.

The article is on the Tuck and Patty website. But ecj's advice to read the "Benson picking on a WesMo" thread in the Player's section on this forum will be more beneficial.

[docbop]

Along this topic there is an short interview with Sheryl Bailey in the August 2014 Guitar Player magazine. They mention her picking, she uses Benson style picking. What I found interesting is she said the Benson picking angle is similar to that of Classical guitarist when they fingerpick. She said she used medium thickness picks because they are about the thickness of a fingernail. Never heard anyone mention why the angle in Benson picking in those terms before.

[MarkRhodes]

Here's a link to Tuck's article on picking. Many people on this forum---not just Benson pickers---have found it useful. I hope you do too.

https://www.tuckandpatti.com/pick-finger_tech.html

[monk]

docbop,
You should cross-post this to the Benson picking on a WesMo thread in the Players section.

Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

[MarkRhodes]

Along this topic there is an short interview with Sheryl Bailey in the August 2014 Guitar Player magazine. They mention her picking, she used Benson style picking. What I found interesting is she said the Benson picking angle is similar to that of Classical guitarist when they fingerpick. She said she used medium thickness picks because they are about the thickness of a fingernail. Never heard anyone mention why the angle in Benson picking in those terms before.

I never thought of it that way either, doc. It would be interesting to hear randalljazz comment on the angle of classical guitarists when they fingerpick.

As for picks, Fender Mediums are the choice for most Benson pickers I know. The brown ones. But I never heard anyone say they chose them because the thickness was about the same as a fingernail. (I don't see why that would be a selling point.) Most prefer the brown Fender Medium because of the sound it produces on flatwound strings.

[bobby d]

IIRC, Andress tries to get descriptive by using geometrical expressions which gets confusing. (Obtuse, X degrees?) Someone gave me a tip on trying different pick angles over 40 years ago so the concept isn't new to me.

I kind of naturally angled my pic similar to Benson just by trying to play one of his fast chromatic licks at his speed. But my angle changes when playing other licks. I suggest trying to play these licks at full speed to see if your picking technique (angle, wrist, forearm, anchoring etc.) adapts naturally. If it doesn't, you'll have to struggle a lot more.

It's plain to see that many guitarists have different ways of approaching the strings with the pick and still have great results. Steve Morse for example angles his arm, wrist and pick similar to GB, but holds the pick with thumb and two fingers. His pick hits the strings from the side rather than the pointed end.

[ecj]

Along this topic there is an short interview with Sheryl Bailey in the August 2014 Guitar Player magazine. They mention her picking, she uses Benson style picking. What I found interesting is she said the Benson picking angle is similar to that of Classical guitarist when they fingerpick. She said she used medium thickness picks because they are about the thickness of a fingernail. Never heard anyone mention why the angle in Benson picking in those terms before.

Sheryl must have some really thick fingernails...

Kidding aside, I heard Joe pass say the same thing. He angles his pick, too, just in the opposite direction.

If I were starting out, I'd probably avoid reading the Andress article. It's confusing as hell. There are better methods to learning this out there now than there were 10 years ago when he wrote that.

[docbop]

The reason Benson picking is not mentioned in those terms is because the hand position for GB picking has absolutely not even the tiniest resemblance to the classical position. That's why.
The only resemblance is to the more ancient lute position after the early lutenists abandoned picks...

It's not the playing position its the angle the pick strikes the strings is similar to angle finger pluck the strings. You study with Sheryl ask her about her interview.

[monk]

The reason Benson picking is not mentioned in those terms is because the hand position for GB picking has absolutely not even the tiniest resemblance to the classical position. That's why.
The only resemblance is to the more ancient lute position after the early lutenists abandoned picks...

She's not talking about the hand position. She's talking about the similarity in the angle that the fingernail addresses the string with the angle that the pick hits the string with with the Benson Technique.

[Groyniad]

thanks for the help - and the reference. i have recently discovered that thread - and it looks very good. i'll go back to it.

any chance of a heads up on the particular aspect of this stuff i was drawing attention to. namely, the bit about pushing and pulling the pick onto adjacent strings which perform the service of stopping the pick in a sensible place for you. feels very different to do this (if you're not used to it). is there a future in it ladies and gents?

thanks - i'll go do more homework directly

[Groyniad]

YEah.
That Andress article is very suspect. Especially when it's clear Andress was never a great picker himself...Blind leading the blind yet again

i'm sure there's better stuff out there now about this topic (which if its important to you at all can easily seem very important indeed). but i liked Andress' discussion a great deal.

i do feel that - in a world almost entirely devoid of miracle cures - it comes about as close to being one as can be hoped for. i've struggled with picking (which is to say with playing the notes) on the bandstand for a very long time - playing lots of parker tunes and high tempo standards - and never feeling quite relaxed with the guitar. with work, i think this technique could pretty much solve that problem.

its pretty obvious isn't it that benson has a super-technique - that he's more at liberty to do whatever the hell he wants on the guitar than anyone else. i'm not that mad about his playing in a way - but that is not the point. you could use that technique to do anything you want - you don't have to use it the way he does.

so benson is the best argument for benson picking - and Andress gets that spot on I think.

[fep]

so benson is the best argument for benson picking - and Andress gets that spot on I think.

And a lot of other players get a lot of mileage from that technique also... from Jim Hall to Rodney Jones to... (wait for it) Eddie Van Halen! (Eddie has a lot of different techniques including one that is awfully similar to the Benson technique).

[Groyniad]

a bit gratuitous this but forgive me - and i did just say 'i'm not that mad about his playing in a way' so i need a chance to take that back emphatically and quickly. sorry world.

dig this guys

[MarkRhodes]

She's not talking about the hand position. She's talking about the similarity in the angle that the fingernail addresses the string with the angle that the pick hits the string with with the Benson Technique.

That's what I thought but it is not clear to me that that's right. I wrote a classical guitarist who belongs to this forum and asked him for his take on this. He said he would look at the thread. I take it that he has but decided to say nothing about her claim. I'm unsure what to make of that.

[MarkRhodes]

a bit gratuitous this but forgive me - and i did just say 'i'm not that mad about his playing in a way' so i need a chance to take that back emphatically and quickly. sorry world.

dig this guys

Yeah, I dig that. George has enjoyed a long and varied career. I don't know if anyone likes everything he has done.(Heck, George may not like all that he has done!) But I think it would be hard for a lover of jazz guitar not to be knocked out by much of his playing. He really is great.

[Groyniad]

right Mark - and thanks.

it is varied isn't it. have you checked out this version of shadow of your smile? the effortlessness with which he keeps the melody in the foreground despite all the embellishment is unbelievable. am i mad to say this reminds me of art tatum?

[MarkRhodes]

Sheryl must have some really thick fingernails....

That's exactly what I thought! The picks Robert Conti uses---.38 Jim Dunlop nylon---are more like my fingernails.

[docbop]

That's exactly what I thought! The picks Robert Conti uses---.38 Jim Dunlop nylon---are more like my fingernails.

I dug thru my pick jar and found some Fender Mediums I'd say they are about as thick as my nails, guess I need to cut back on eating Jello. I tried using the medium and too thin for me in my Benson-esque position and in a standard position. I still like a plain old Heavy thickness pick be it a teardrop or a traditional shape pick.

[rpguitar]

Fender mediums - the brown tortoise kind - are the only pick I've ever tried that actually feel/sound good to me both in "normal" use, with the point down, or rotated to use the top left rounded part. Try it.

The point is more flexible and bright, while the rounded part is warm yet still percussive, like a heavier pick.

My picking angle tends to be 45 degrees clockwise to the strings, where downstrokes are in the direction of the guitar's bottom, the opposite of Benson technique.

[fumblefingers]

She's not talking about the hand position. She's talking about the similarity in the angle that the fingernail addresses the string with the angle that the pick hits the string with with the Benson Technique.

Angled as opposed to straight, like a Flamenco player in other words?

of course the classical player is tasked with using a combination of flesh and nail. Too much nail sounds "scratchy" as David Russell likes to say. We're not trying to do that with our picks. I don't think that the point about classical angle does much for clarification on this topic

[fumblefingers]

That's what I thought but it is not clear to me that that's right. I wrote a classical guitarist who belongs to this forum and asked him for his take on this. He said he would look at the thread. I take it that he has but decided to say nothing about her claim. I'm unsure what to make of that.

Just look in Noad book one.