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It seems so many of the fast, fluid guitarists I see use techniques other than traditional alternate picking, hold the pick in a non-traditional (e.g. play using the side or use three fingers) manner, or they have a different type of motion such as Scalpel Picking, Sarod Picking, or Benson picking.
Here are just a few accomplished players that use different styles rather than traditional alternate and/or hold the pick differently:
George Benson
Pat Metheny
Michael Schenker
Steve Morse
Yngwie Malmsteen
George Lynch
Marty Friedman
Stevie Ray Vaughn
Eddie Van Halen
Dave Mustaine
And even a couple of great forum members
The only really fast players I can think of that I know hold the pick in a traditional manner and use regular alternate picking are John Petrucci, Pat Martino, Johnny Smith, and Paul Gilbert. Please tell me there are many more!Last edited by AlsoRan; 12-08-2015 at 08:38 AM. Reason: added
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06-21-2014 10:23 PM
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Tal Farlow. None faster. None more fluid. The Master.
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Which shows you have to find what works for you like Howard Roberts someone missing from your list. He did scalpel picking and when he started GIT had all the student switch to scalpel picking. After a lot of frustrated students he realized that best to recommend things and let student find what works for them. So as things went on picking was discussed and teachers would work with student on picking in private sessions or open counselling.
I'd say focus on the result; evenness, solid attack, crossing strings, etc then look and see what's working.
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Howard Roberts also? Wow.
Originally Posted by docbop
Thanks, doc. I can see that picking technique and study is soooo important, and GIT / Howard recognized this.
Could it be that the traditional style of picking puts limits on you that requires massive practice to even have a chance to overcome? Could it be there is a "better" way of doing things?
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Pubylakeg, was Tal pretty much an alternate picker who held the pick in the traditional way? Originally Posted by pubylakeg
I know that he, like many, threw in some sweep picking and economy picking, but surely he held the pick between two fingers and used the pointy part of the pick, right?
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To my ears most players that use strict alternate picking always seem to have a sharp attack. I usually hear a lot of pick noise. Although Eric Johnson isn't a Jazz guy, he has always mixed pciking styles, but I have always loved the tone of his bounce technique. I copied that style of picking and then kind of morphed it to fit my playing style and button pick. A lot of times players look at picking styles for the speed factor, but I believe the style itself influences the actual tone you get from the string, which in my personal opinion means much more than the speed one achieves.
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To work on my health I do a lot of weight lifting and through that you deal a lot with genetics and having to deal with the cards you are dealt. Like some people are genetically more adapt at being a long distance runner vs a sprinter. Gets in to the percentage of fast-twitch muscles vs slow-twitch in your body. Same with picking we all have different capabilities and you have to find yours. Then if you want to go beyond that you have to find alternatives. Like John Scofield talks about how he's not a fast picker so to compensate he worked on his hammer-ons and pull-offs to get the notes out. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
As the old saying goes... Where there's a will, there's a way.
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Mike Stern
Lee Ritenour
Larry Coryell
Steve Khan
Larry Carlton
Kurt Rosenwinkel
John Scofield
Jonathan Kriesberg
Wayne Krantz
Mike Moreno
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Johnny Smith. I think of him as the quintessential alternate picker.
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Now we're talking. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
That is some pretty good company there, although some of them, from what I have seen, are not known as being speed merchants (a la John McLaughlin - who was purported to a be a Scalpel or Sarod picker by one source).
But I have heard Lee, Larry, Wayne, Jonathan, and maybe another, get loose and really burn it up.
Thanks.
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Hi Alsoran,
Maybe I misunderstood the question. Tal used primarily alt picking with sweeps and latterly a lot of hybrid pick/fingers. Is holding the pick between two fingers and using the pointed part not the traditional manner ?
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Alsoran, I think an interesting one for your example is Norman Brown. He considers Benson his biggest influence and a lot of folks have said he is the Benson succesor. Has Benson like chops, uses a traditional picking technigue.
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@fep he does sound somewhat like Benson. Very nice though. I have never heard of him before. I'm going to keep him on my list of artists to by music from.
Thanks Frank.
edh
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I probably was not clear, but you construed it correctly. Originally Posted by pubylakeg
Tal is exactly what I am talking about - a blazing fast guitarist that uses alternate picking and holds the pick the traditional way.
I would definitely include sweeps and hybrid picking in the category of "traditional."
Thanks.
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Al DiMeola -- when I think "strict alternate pickers" I think of him and Pat Martino
honestly, when you're trying to decide whether to use alternate picking, economy picking, or something else, the thing you should ask is not "what's best?" or "what's fastest?" but "which one do I like the SOUND of best?"
think about strict alternate pickers: DiMeola, Martino, Paul Gilbert, Steve Morse (even if his grip is non-traditional). all of them have articulation like a machine gun: perfectly even, consistent, almost every note with a corresponding attack. if that's the sound you like, go for it.
think about guys who use economy picking: Gambale, Jimmy Bruno, Metheny (more like he uses a ton of slurs). smoother articulation, more horn like.
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In terms of currently gigging players, who have a bop based technique - I'd say Martino, Kreisberg, Andreas Oberg, and Bireli Lagrene.
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OK.
This is what I needed to see.
I was beginning to think the fastest, most fluid players had to abandon "traditionally taught guitar instruction technique in order to gain their amazing prowess. I feared I might have to reconstruct my technique.
Again, by traditional I mean:
1) Hold the pick with the point of it pointing into the strings
2) Attack the strings by moving the pick up and down using either the wrist or elbow or something in between with no scalpel picking, circle picking, etc...
I wonder if there are teachers out there who right off the bat start out teaching students to use their thumb like Wes, or scalpel pick like McLaughlin, or circle pick like Kenny Burrell, or Benson Pick. Or, is a student taught the traditional technique and later on works out other ways to pick?
Regardless, thanks for all the feedback.
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McLaughlin doesn't "scalpel pick".
Check out his "This Is How I Do It" DVD.
Although I don't remember him going specifically into the subject
of picking, you only have to watch him closely.
The three camera angles that this project was filmed with allow you
to select whether you want to watch his left hand, right hand or the wider picture.
Take a real close look....if that's what you call scalpel picking....fair enough, I'll just have to
agree to disagree.
To me that's picking from the wrist floating lightly in contact with the strings.
I've been been pretty obsessive in studying how different players pick.
To me this is fundamental to the transmission of your sound and therefore
a crucial part of your touch and expression.
I use the term "embouchure" of the picking hand to help me to observe how
a given player addresses the instrument.
In the case of McLaughlin, his embouchure [if you can humor me] is the stock
standard pick grip of the flat of the thumb holding the pick against the side of the
of the index finger.....
Then it gets interesting [to me anyway].....the left side of his middle finger engages the
left corner of the index's nail, the ring finger seems to approach the middle finger
from below so that it lends support to m.
The pinky is most often under the ring finger, similar to the way the ring finger is
under the m.
The result of this embouchure or stance gives great support to the
index/thumb intersection, where it counts.
Also, the hand is very compact because you don't have the fingers flying around in mid air.
BTW, I think that if you're playing with a small pick, as in the case of McLaughlin [Jazz III]
this gives max support and compactness....good for his speed picking.
.....Note also though that while JM is an alternate picker, he sometimes does mini sweeps
like most players, and also is seen repeating a note to get on the right pick direction to
make a string crossing.
I am sure that this whole shebang evolved naturally for him and it probably evolved over
time.
I just find it helpful, given my interest in pick technique over a very long time to try to reverse
engineer what some of the guys who play predominantly alternate picking and see if that can
help me in my own approach to playing.
Compare this with another favorite player of mine Pat Martino.
He holds the pick in the standard way but allows his fingers to splay loosely while picking
primarily from the wrist.
I used this way for some years but found it only worked for me while playing heavy strings
say 15-56's .......
No wonder he would break strings.
This then gave me to understand why Pat has often described his picking
hand as a "dropout"....ha ha .....hardly!
He is one of the most articulate of players as we all know....Listen to his amazing dynamic control.
My wife will remark when she hears Pat, "that's Pat, he's talking to me"
OK I'd better give it a rest........Suffice it to say that there are many, many variants of
alternate picking alone.
Check out your fave players IN DETAIL to see/hear "how they do it"
Apply what you can to your playing....but for goodness sake do it with some reason.
To improve your tone, facility [what do I want to be able to articulate..ie musical ideas] on and on.
I've been watching the Benson picking saga playing out in that thread and was struck by
a comment someone made to the effect of "do you want to sound like Benson?"
Hmmmm
My very sporadic posts here are usually too wordy and often stop a thread in its tracks.
It's just I feel strongly about certain things and have to let it all hang out.
And so..........
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It doesn't matter whether it's fast or slow, creating good melodies that fit into the music is the most important thing.
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That was a very helpful post especially your comparison to embrouchures and your clarification on John. Originally Posted by Moonray
McLaughlin doesn't "scalpel pick".
Check out his "This Is How I Do It" DVD.
OK I'd better give it a rest........Suffice it to say that there are many, many variants of
alternate picking alone.
Check out your fave players IN DETAIL to see/hear "how they do it"
Apply what you can to your playing....but for goodness sake do it with some reason.
To improve your tone, facility [what do I want to be able to articulate..ie musical ideas] on and on.
I've been watching the Benson picking saga playing out in that thread and was struck by
a comment someone made to the effect of "do you want to sound like Benson?"
Hmmmm
My very sporadic posts here are usually too wordy and often stop a thread in its tracks.
It's just I feel strongly about certain things and have to let it all hang out.
And so..........
So part of what you are saying is that picking technique is more or less as individual, and it is up to each individual to figure out what works best for them.
Dare I say because of hand and finger construction, there may be many individuals who will never be able to "Benson Pick."
So the search for what works best for each individual is just that - a search, and we each have to figure out what works best for us, time-consuming as it may be (and it could take years).
The truth does hurt sometimes, but I would rather have truth than chase fantasy.
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Yeah......I could never Benson pick well because my thumb has no flexibility at all
at the tip segment.
So I can't "turn back" the tip to get that locked up feeling that gives great Benson pickers
the secure grip on the pick.
Now that was an asset during my previous life as a classical guitarist.
My thumb created a perfect setup for engaging the string at the precise
point where the nail joins the thumb....and I had no "give" at that point
which gave me a really secure bass sound to balance the other voices around.
....Just dumb luck....suited my physiology...didn't have to think about it....ever.
Now, when I was raising a family and went into teaching on a pretty much full time basis
I quickly noticed the different make up of students' hands.
One of the biggest problems I came across was that many peoples thumbs
bent back at varying degrees causing a lot of inaccuracy.
I've heard the "bendy thumb" syndrome as cobbler's bend ....sounds nasty..ha ha
Take a look at the most famous of all the classical guitarists with a cobbler's bend thumb....
....Andres Segovia no less.
Now he worked with that and was able to immobilize the thumb tip at a suitable angle
for drawing out some ravishing tones.
Most don't possess his work ethic, or even the realization that there is a problem.
That's why he is who he is/was and say what you will about the great man's interpretations
etc etc......his tone will be listened to for a long long time.
Back to embouchure as it applies to pick players....
I firmly believe that each player finds their own way dependent on what they want to HEAR.
And further, I see a lot of people trying to, as on these forums trying to adopt someone
else's approach with a physiology that will make it more difficult for them to become themselves
musically.
As Jimmy Bruno said on RMMGJ recently as a long thread on picking went on "it's just picking"
....had to laugh....Jimmy has his thing down for sure and you can bet that he worked hard for it.
I don't teach at all these days....but if I did get back to it I would get students to listen/observe..
...listen/observe ....first the greats ....you can see them on you tube...there's even Troy Grady's
"Cracking the Code" site where you can see a variety of top players' RH picking up close and at various
tempos.
Then...I would make sure that the student is doing the listen/observe thing on their own technique.
A video camera would be helpful..or the age old ...watch the guy in the mirror play.
And finally, last night I happened to watch the four steps that Kenny Werner advocates on his Effortless
Mastery DVD produced by the Jazz Heaven people.
Kenny lays out a very comprehensive way to engage with YOUR music, YOUR physical approach.
I can only recommend that people check it out.
You can have a 24 hour pay per view for minimum expense...or you can just buy it.
I did.....it helps to remind me of what and why I'm doing this.
Go forth and pick.....whether it be blazing or smouldering .....make it real.Last edited by Moonray; 06-24-2014 at 11:15 PM.
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Isn't there a Youtube channel where a guy takes video of famous guitar players and zooms in on their hands and slows the video down super slow and analyzes their technique in painful detail? It was either on Youtube or just on some guy's site but it's definitely out there.
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Yep......That's the one I mentioned.
"Cracking the Code"
You'll see Jimmy Bruno and Mike Stern for starters....of particular interest to jazzers.
I did some "research " on Mike Stern.......verrry interrrresting.
[extra R's for those of a certain age]
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i just changed to benson picking after twenty years of traditional picking. the reason i put all the work in was simple - i get a much better (fuller, stronger, louder - more horn-like) sound. but the other benefits (for me at least) are legion: huge improvement in physical relationship to guitar, better transition from strumming to picking, much more facility. i've had to give up using fingers along with the pick - but that will come back in time i think. people don't emphasize enough the transformation in tone that comes with the benson style. because gb just blows everyone off the bandstand the only thing people talk about is the increase in facility. and btw, as far as i can tell, jim hall has basically a benson picking style (i'm sure jim's style pre-dates george's) - you can hear it as well as see it.
and howard aldern uses a traditional picking style - he discusses it in a masterclass you can find on yt.
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I call that "banana" thumb. (Or "ringing a doorbell.") But it is not necessary for one's thumb to bend back. It IS necessary to lock, but locking doesn't require a backward bend. It requires a fixed position, that's all. Originally Posted by Moonray
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