Fast players that use traditional alternate picking with normal grip

[Shadow of the Sun]

I got my hands on Horowitz's book on gypsy picking and I've been giving it a go- from what I can gather (including other materials and videos) gypsy picking is mostly performed by rotating the wrist like if you were opening a doorknob, and using gravity to assist on downstrokes, which use the next string to keep the picking from getting away.

To be honest, from what I've seen of Benson picking, it's very similar to gypsy picking, but Benson does things a bit differently.

The 'bent wrist' or 'cocked wrist' of gypsy jazz picking is something I've been experimenting with over the past couple of days. It feels a bit weird, and after too much my wrist is starting to hurt, but I'm assuming that's because A, I have terrible wrists (i broke my right wrist when i was young and it's never been particularly good since then, and i think i might have the prelude to arthritis) and because tension is sneaking in. Something I'll have to work on.

I do like Horowitz's emphasis on tension-relaxation-tension- like, you use the wrist to rest stroke, let your arm and hand relax, use the wrist to upstroke, relax again, etc. It's something I'll have to do at a really slow tempo and speed up.

[teok]

Steve Lukather. When he get's going he's scary fast. Almost entirely alternate picking I believe. He doesn't get enough dap from the rock guitar crowd for how remarkable a player he is. I guess because he makes his living playing on Michael Jackson and Barbara Streisand records.

[Reg]

Just trying to add some info about the picking thing...

Personally... I believe you need to have a basic reference, what you use as your default picking technique.

If you read through a eight bar phrase at a fast tempo... how you would pick the notes with out thinking about it.

This is not the picking... you might work out slowly for a performance. I'm talking about...the technique, you've trained yourself to use instinctively...

One of the difficulties with guitar and phrasing is there are choices, with picking, fingerings and location on the fretboard.

Once your decide and get together your basic default picking down, you then need to develop the rest of the picking options, with reference to fingerings and fret locations. (become aware of articulations etc...)

Obviously no one uses the same technique all the time, but how you pick should not just be by chance.

Maybe the reading through something was bad example... how about,

Play two octave arpeggio patterns starting Gma Ionian in 2nd position. Complete arpeggios, all 7 notes.

Try playing four note groupings,

G B D F#
B D F# A
D F# A C
F# A C E
A C E G.... then back down

G E C A
E C A F#
C A F# D
A F# D B
F# D B G

now play the same arpeggios with triplets,

G B D
B D F#
D F# A etc..

Try and play at fast tempo... don't give yourself the chance to think, just play.

How did you pick etc... if your having difficulty just playing the arpeggios... that's a different story, you have some work to do.

How did you pick, that should be your default reference.

I don't actually practice these arpeggios ... but I did as a Kid, all 7 positions and all three minors Maj/Min. Melodic and Harmonic and the rest etc... somewhat just like you do with scales all the different patterns, skips etc... all of which help see what picking was about to me... I have a system with references... there are other systems but it works for me. I never have problems being able to play lines etc...

I've was in the recording studio the last few days, reading very busy lines at very fast tempos... with four horns... never had to think about how I was going to pick... All I thought about was phrasing and articulations... This comes from having a default picking system.

[Kojo27]

Guthrie Govan. He also sweeps and "economies" - but he can alternate with the best of them. Dang, what a monster player!

Guthrie wrote a two-volume set of books, "Creative Guitar" (1 & 2) -- and these are among the best books I've seen for guitar players of all styles. Both have CDs of Govan's amazing playing, as he demonstrates all examples in the books. Guthrie is very funny, and his humour comes through strong in his writing. Also, watch any of his instructional videos and you'll see his dry humor right away.

But the thing is the musical info, some in "essay" form, in these two books; and they aren't too expensive. I recommend them very highly to anyone serious about this instrument. The heavy musical examples are mostly in Volume 2. But don't forgo Volume 1. : )


KJ

[Reg]

Thought I would post a couple older vids... not really much but you can see how I go in and out of different picking techniques pretty easily and don't really tense up that much. Seems like feel is lost or at least changes when the mechanics tense up.

The 1st tune was an original I recorded a few years back and the next a somewhat quick arrangement of Dolphin Dance

[Reg]

Sorry. here's the other vid

[pinbridge]

Vinnie Moore.

[m_a]

Hey fumblefingers

I was referring to research on his picking technique as demonstrated
here : Code Archive: Mike Stern | Troy Grady ? Guitarist

You pay five bucks and get around 40 clips of Mike Stern playing bits
of his vocabulary.
The clips are played at tempo, then successively slowed down but with
incredibly clear photography so you can see every movement in great detail.
You also get pdf's ....so if you like any of the licks, or simply want to test
yourself....you got it.

Re Mike's history......that has well covered.....so let's move on to his great work.

I spent a few hours enthralled watching Troy's material after reading your post. Excellent stuff really, and Troy is a smokin' player himself. I also gained a new appreciation for Yngwie Malmsteen ; ) I purchased the season 2 pass for $30. Some stuff is included for free with the pass, possibly the Mike Stern stuff, will check tonight. Jimmy Bruno will be featured in Season 3.

[AleikhBaba]

Just trying to add some info about the picking thing...

Personally... I believe you need to have a basic reference, what you use as your default picking technique.

If you read through a eight bar phrase at a fast tempo... how you would pick the notes with out thinking about it.

This is not the picking... you might work out slowly for a performance. I'm talking about...the technique, you've trained yourself to use instinctively...

One of the difficulties with guitar and phrasing is there are choices, with picking, fingerings and location on the fretboard.

Once your decide and get together your basic default picking down, you then need to develop the rest of the picking options, with reference to fingerings and fret locations. (become aware of articulations etc...)

Obviously no one uses the same technique all the time, but how you pick should not just be by chance.

Maybe the reading through something was bad example... how about,

Play two octave arpeggio patterns starting Gma Ionian in 2nd position. Complete arpeggios, all 7 notes.

Try playing four note groupings,

G B D F#
B D F# A
D F# A C
F# A C E
A C E G.... then back down

G E C A
E C A F#
C A F# D
A F# D B
F# D B G

now play the same arpeggios with triplets,

G B D
B D F#
D F# A etc..

Try and play at fast tempo... don't give yourself the chance to think, just play.

How did you pick etc... if your having difficulty just playing the arpeggios... that's a different story, you have some work to do.

How did you pick, that should be your default reference.

I don't actually practice these arpeggios ... but I did as a Kid, all 7 positions and all three minors Maj/Min. Melodic and Harmonic and the rest etc... somewhat just like you do with scales all the different patterns, skips etc... all of which help see what picking was about to me... I have a system with references... there are other systems but it works for me. I never have problems being able to play lines etc...

I've was in the recording studio the last few days, reading very busy lines at very fast tempos... with four horns... never had to think about how I was going to pick... All I thought about was phrasing and articulations... This comes from having a default picking system.

hey Reg, that's a great diagnostic test to keep things level. Really appreciate the time that you take to drop reqd. knowledge. and it's almost always the basics that have to be reappraised and refined and consolidated.

[Robertkoa]

Lydian - Norman Brown (Smooth Jazz Family):

Does a lot of "smooth jazz" but great sense of time excellent Tone and can burn when he wants to.
Remind you of anyone ?

Also SRV had conventional Pick Technique and grip.
Jonathan Kriesburg -great Jazz Guitarist with nearly Perfect Technique but so good Musically he doesn't always even show his amazing chops.
More conventional Pickers not sure if mentioned before are
Andy Timmons
Guthrie Govan
The Late Shawn Lane
Eric Johnson
There are hundreds more.

[Robertkoa]

This point is well taken -

BUT -after putting in my 10 or 20 thousand Hours my right hand was quite good-

BUT - with small hands I was not able to get near the fastest most fluid Players until switching my Fretting hand to a Position which floats the thumb behind the neck effectively " widening" the Fret Hand.
I could have practiced another 2 to 4 hours a day for another 20 years and it would have made no difference.

I think Players should get good at Alternate Picking before making it really complicated with 6 or 8 other complicated Approaches.

If you like symmetric or rest strokes with a Pick ( ?¿) fine...but alternate picking goes really really far.

I think it is / would be good to have a Teacher who can physically demonstrate these also rather than assume some Fluid Player is using them.

Start with a good grip that can accent up or downstrokes nearly equally and just go with Alternate until you get good at it- it may be all you need.

Many people rip Pentatonics across the strings with Alternate Picking ( two notes per string) - it's not a huge leap to Alternate Pick one Note per String.

[christianm77]

Yeah, I can't really think of many players that use the trad alternate pick grip and get a legato sound, but there's usually an exception to everything.

Technique is always about compromise, of course....

I think of trad alternate picking as a percussive, uber rhythmic way to play and I don't use it in my electric playing. When I play acoustic pick guitar I use gypsy picking because of my need for projection (the only reason I can see why anyone would choose to use this pick style - it's excellent way to pick, don't get me wrong, but suited to certain performance situations. Playing the kind of stuff that works well on a maccaferri or acoustic archtop sounds a bit much on electric to my ears, at least when I do it.)

There's a big cross over between Gypsy and Benson picking. They are allied techniques. They are less rhythmically flexible than alternate picking as the lines have their own rhythmic accents built in. With GJ picking you are free to use your arm weight for downstrokes which gives you more power. Benson picking sounds great on clean electric, and I am flirting with it....

When it comes to electric I happen not to like the sound of floating wrist approaches. I like to pick a bit softer and stop strings from ringing with my right hand. So electric guitar technique. What I do here is largely alternate picking, but I am aiming for a very smooth, even, sustained sound. I don't think it's necessary to use sweeps for this at moderate speeds. (Faster - I think sweeping and small amounts of legato mixed in is the answer. I am yet to really develop this in my electric playing, as I'm mostly a pick every note guy.)

A lot of it is balancing the initial onset of the note against the decay. The way you angle your pick can affect this too.

I feel I am still exploring this. I've practiced quite a few picking styles over the years, I feel I have a bit of flexibility and don't think too much about this when actually playing music. Sweep/economy, alternate, rest stroke picking can all be done with the same right hand position and all offer different strengths and weaknesses. Just make sure you practice them properly, slow and relaxed with good biomechanics. (Troy Grady is great for the last bit of this BTW.)

[christianm77]

PS I LOVE teaching Gypsy Jazz guitar technique because I know exactly how it works. It's really clear. It seems to me that until Troy came along with his weird camera and chirpy documentaries, electric guitar specific technique was a bit of a dark art - people would tell you which way to move your pick, but not HOW. Now I am confident I can teach someone to be a right hand shredder if that's what they want.

[Robertkoa]

To the OP -I also think you are being "tricked" somehow into thinking many Players are NOT using "conventional"
technique.
Here is Yngwie Malmsteen:

Yngwie Malmsteen Explains His Style and Speed Pic…:

He is using a conventional "fingertip grip"
as opposed to some who curl the tip of index finger back to the palm and rest the pick further down to second joint of Index Finger ( I call this "Index Curl Grip).
I call this Grip Malmsteen uses here Index Tip Grip - high wrist- top of wrist rotated slightly away from face of Guitar for more even attack on upstrokes and downstrokes and easier to skip strings ( lift) and for advanced alternate picking easier to play across strings( replaces sweep) usually with a slightly high wrist IMO.
He is very efficient - in this Clip he has too much "click" but Delrin /Tortex Pick and softer Angle would help that.

I see a lot of wacky stuff about Picking on the Internet...

I agree with Christian that the Grady Videos could be very helpful when you are working on grips and technique.

It should not be too complicated when actually performing- fluid players do NOT use 7 different pick techniques to negotiate one long Phrase.

Especially if the Player is improvising...

[christianm77]

What about Mike Stern? He's pretty straight alternate. Floating wrist too. A very traditional jazz guitarist when he's not rocking out.... But his tone isn't uber percussive... He's not a shred monger, but his chops are pretty good....

[55bar]

What about Mike Stern? He's pretty straight alternate. Floating wrist too. A very traditional jazz guitarist when he's not rocking out.... But his tone isn't uber percussive... He's not a shred monger, but his chops are pretty good....

Or to quote Larry D "pretttttty pretttty good"

[cosmic gumbo]

Mike Stern
Lee Ritenour
Larry Coryell
Steve Khan
Larry Carlton
Kurt Rosenwinkel
John Scofield
Jonathan Kriesberg
Wayne Krantz
Mike Moreno

Yngwie isn't a jazz guitarist, so he didn't make the list, Mike Stern did.

[lawson-stone]

Wasn't Joe Pass pretty much a traditional style of pick-player (when he used a pick which was a lot)? I know he preferred an itty-bitty pick, but he didn't anchor, held the pick on the middle joint of the finger held by the thumb, and generally did alternate picking. I think he had a tendency do make it always a down stroke when he changed strings (?) but otherwise, I think his picking technique was pretty traditional.

[Robertkoa]

Well only recently because of learning "Jazz Rhythmic Phrasing" meaning hard swinging of 8 th 16th Notes etc. locked to a Tempo or Groove have I started to play a bit more staccato using " standard" pick grip.

I was using a softer Pick Attack before still picking almost every note but in a more " legato " way so there would be less attack at the front of the Note- more horn like or more like the Rock guys who " tap" or " hammer" like Eddie Van Halen or Holdsworth only I don't use tapping and decided to pick softly( regardless of speed or Tempo) for that.

Two of the best " legato " when they want legato- and Staccato when they want Staccato( more attack) are
Eric Johnson and Jonathan Kriesburg.

Obviously legato Players can sound more like a Violin/ Cello or Sax when they want to but conversely sharpening the attack can be cool and almost essential for precise "locking" to a Beat or Groove.
Better to be able to do both obviously....
and with a pick ( for me ).

I think Van Halen ( Rock) and Holdsworth ( Modern Jazz )sound great hammering/ tapping etc. with that Legato Approach and Stanley Jordan ( Jazz)...but really hard to make it swing hard.
In order to sound like a " Jazzer" I am picking harder to get the " Hard Swing".

To my ears Benson is the King of " Hard Swing" and Players like Pat Martino not quite as much but still " Hard" and then there others who have a more " relaxed" Swing....or even " lazy" swing where every other Note they play is further behind the Beat than Benson or Martino play it.
Benson is really fearless when he plays- I call it " reckless precision" a very exciting thing to have.

[christianm77]

Wasn't Joe Pass pretty much a traditional style of pick-player (when he used a pick which was a lot)? I know he preferred an itty-bitty pick, but he didn't anchor, held the pick on the middle joint of the finger held by the thumb, and generally did alternate picking. I think he had a tendency do make it always a down stroke when he changed strings (?) but otherwise, I think his picking technique was pretty traditional.

Well VERY traditional in that he was basically a rest stroke/gypsy picker. Gypsy picking is as I understand it the traditional way to pick on guitar as it is on tenor banjo, mandolin, tres cubano and quite a few other instruments.....

Try projecting acoustically with free stroke alternate picking and see how far you get ;-)

I understand alternate picking to be a later technique on guitar (but I could be wrong - Renaissance Lute employs a finger style form of alternate picking, and it seems likely that evolved from the earlier plectrum technique...)

[christianm77]

Well only recently because of learning "Jazz Rhythmic Phrasing" meaning hard swinging of 8 th 16th Notes etc. locked to a Tempo or Groove have I started to play a bit more staccato using " standard" pick grip.

I was using a softer Pick Attack before still picking almost every note but in a more " legato " way so there would be less attack at the front of the Note- more horn like or more like the Rock guys who " tap" or " hammer" like Eddie Van Halen or Holdsworth only I don't use tapping and decided to pick softly( regardless of speed or Tempo) for that.

Two of the best " legato " when they want legato- and Staccato when they want Staccato( more attack) are
Eric Johnson and Jonathan Kriesburg.

Obviously legato Players can sound more like a Violin/ Cello or Sax when they want to but conversely sharpening the attack can be cool and almost essential for precise "locking" to a Beat or Groove.
Better to be able to do both obviously....
and with a pick ( for me ).

I think Van Halen ( Rock) and Holdsworth ( Modern Jazz )sound great hammering/ tapping etc. with that Legato Approach and Stanley Jordan ( Jazz)...but really hard to make it swing hard.

Interesting point. Billy Bauer always said that a guitarist should always play downstrokes to even out the accents. I have to say that I like to play downstrokes as much as possible when playing swing stuff (the upstroke is a concession to necessity nothing more) obviously Charlie Christian and Wes Montgomery seem to bear this out.

One of the most important things that a jazz guitarist needs to bear in mind is the ability to essentially accent the off beats. There's that exercise where you play a swung scale but accent all the off beats for example.... You can do this by developing your upstrokes.

A violinist I play with uses 'swing bowing' where the down bow goes on the off beat. The aim is evenness ultimately, but in short term it feels like an accent. I suppose you could do this by picking the note on the off beat and hammering on the note on the beat. I might have to try that.

But yes, I think a bit of sharpness to the attack is kind of good for the feel. I always feel like the guitar should be like a drum...

[Robertkoa]

What about Mike Stern? He's pretty straight alternate. Floating wrist too. A very traditional jazz guitarist when he's not rocking out.... But his tone isn't uber percussive... He's not a shred monger, but his chops are pretty good....

Yes Stern can really play "Traditional" when he wants to.

Years ago I saw Michael Brecker at the University of Miami and Brecker had a killer Group with Stern on Guitar - Stern was playing with little or no bends and Vibrato and was really really good - better than his Albums- I was surprised at how good his right hand was.

A funny thing- Stern was sometimes smiling at the other Band Members and I remember him mock pulling out his hair - joking- quick gesture because as good as Stern was- he was really "On"-
Brecker was from another Planet- I suspect Brecker was SO good he was even freaking out the other Band Members.(!)
He did everything from Junior Walker R&B ..Blues...Coltrane..Parker..Hendrix Pentatonic stuff squared..long beautiful ballad stuff...electronic stuff( Electronic Wind Instrument)..Classical Sounding Stuff...probably the greatest Soloist I have ever seen in one Performance- and I am not even a huge Jazz Fan and way back then- even less- but Brecker Transcended Jazz especially on that night.
But Stern was more in" -no effects - no vibrato -straight Jazz Mode and man he really could play in that vein- better than his CDs on that night.

But Brecker - even next to other World Class Musicians at their Best- was unbelievable , amazing - reckless precision and Beauty...

By the way - two semi legato Players that can go either way even picking most Notes are Eric Johnson and Jonathan Kriesburg- great right hand control and great everything else too....

I also agree that Troy Grady's stuff is very helpful for right hand techniques I wish that was around when I was figuring all that out...

Ironically I have only been able to fully USE my right hand picking since I changed my left hand to a " hybrid" position that " "widens" my l fret hand ( small hands short pinky finger ). I am surprised that it works well...lol.

[Dana]

Al Di Meola?

[Robertkoa]

Well regarding Billy Bauer...I think upstrokes and downstrokes should sound the same ( or very nearly the same - listener can't distinguish)-
AND upstrokes and downstrokes should be able to be accented ( loud or soft or very loud) at will- there is too much else going on to have to worry about upstrokes or downstrokes coinciding or landing on a Beat or " landing" on a dotted eighth or dotted sixteenth etc.

[christianm77]

Well regarding Billy Bauer...I think upstrokes and downstrokes should sound the same ( or very nearly the same - listener can't distinguish)-
AND upstrokes and downstrokes should be able to be accented ( loud or soft or very loud) at will- there is too much else going on to have to worry about upstrokes or downstrokes coinciding or landing on a Beat or " landing" on a dotted eighth or dotted sixteenth etc.

I'm pretty certain the all Tristano guys were into downstrokes only for guitar. It was mentioned inA Jazz Life - John Klopotowski. Good book BTW. Presumably you had to use some upstrokes or slurs at some point just to make tempos.

But I see where those guys were coming from. Upstrokes always sound different...