Playing 16th notes at high tempos

[bennybeebop]

I've been learning some bebop style licks from a Pete Sklaroff E-book. I find learning licks a lot more useful than learning scales. He has sections on 8th notes licks and 16th note licks on major and minor 2 5 1s.

I've found that I can only play the the 16th note licks up to about 120 bpm and it's really hard to swing them.

playing in 8th notes I find easy to swing but at tempos of 80 to 120 ish they're way too slow. At the 180 bpm quavers sound cool but then I can't go double time.

Do any of you guys find that you can't go double time at higher tempos?

Also, I find myself wanting to play quaver triplets a hell of a lot cos it inherently has a swing feel to it and sounds fast but is a lot easier than semi-quavers.

Is playing in quaver triplets common in jazz?

i personally veer towards it in all my playing and I intend trying to write some bebop style licks in triplets for my improv kit.

[ecj]

Do any of you guys find that you can't go double time at higher tempos?

I think you'll find that most amateur jazz guitarists struggle to handle anything faster than 16ths at 120. This seems to be a common breakdown tempo, and you've got to get your technique together to get beyond it.

Where did you learn how to pick, and how are you picking? It might be time to spend 30-60 minutes a day really thinking about and isolating the technical aspects of the instrument.

[jds1978]

I've been learning some bebop style licks from a Pete Sklaroff E-book. I find learning licks a lot more useful than learning scales. He has sections on 8th notes licks and 16th note licks on major and minor 2 5 1s.

I've found that I can only play the the 16th note licks up to about 120 bpm and it's really hard to swing them.

playing in 8th notes I find easy to swing but at tempos of 80 to 120 ish they're way too slow. At the 180 bpm quavers sound cool but then I can't go double time.

Do any of you guys find that you can't go double time at higher tempos?

Also, I find myself wanting to play quaver triplets a hell of a lot cos it inherently has a swing feel to it and sounds fast but is a lot easier than semi-quavers.

Is playing in quaver triplets common in jazz?

i personally veer towards it in all my playing and I intend trying to write some bebop style licks in triplets for my improv kit.

I am in the EXACT same position.

It's going to come down to 'practice, practice, practice.' BTW: you are correct about learning licks over scales...

[Reg]

Licks might be cool to learn and more useful for performance or fun etc... but generally with out a solid reference for fingering of licks... which is developed from developing technique and understanding of how licks are constructed and function in context... you'll hit those tempo walls. It's not just practice, practice, practice.

Being able to play at the speed of jazz... is always one of the walls.

[Vladan]

Of course, what ECJ said has nothing to do with professionalism, but true, it is kind of skill/ technique, skill milestone.

IMO, the key is being able to hear = sing in your head those divisions at that tempo.

Also, as oposed to common wisdom, I set tempo at really high speed, say 240 (for me thats way too high) and practice there,
to get the sound of those high speed divisions in my ears. After a while, I come to the point where playing a bar or two in
three otes per beat becomes quite easy. After a little more, I can play half bar to a bar of 16ths. All picked, scale like licks, exercises.

this begs a question. When speaking of speed, it's always good to know what one want to play. Also, in real world, when people play at those speeds,
what kinds of material they play and for how long, in one go. Sure, there are freaks that can go 16ths at 300 for 5 minutes with no break, but usualy,
thosse are shorter passages, and not too many people really play that fast, anyway. Not that they can not, but they just don't feel like it.

I have to finish the writing, can't refine what's written, but hopefully I managed to pass the idea.

Again, all IMO, I'm not at the level, at all.

[Jazzism]

I wouldn't worry to much about your 16th notes not swinging. The time feel tends to straighten out when playing 16ths anyway. There is always an upper tempo barrier for most players where they can't quite cut the tempo when playing double time. But why limit you're self to just 8th and 16th note phrases. Seems like a perfect time to start working those triplets. A great device to have when you find you're self in the situation you describe.
cheers

[Frankenzilla]

Years ago I was stuck around 130 for a long time. What made me get past that plateau
was really slowing down and analyzing my technique. You're not going to wake
up one day with faster muscles. You're going to have become more efficient with the movements you make. This means getting rid of exaggerated motions. It sounds counterintuitive to slow down to get faster but it worked for me. Accuracy and efficiency will be the key to getting faster.

[Vladan]

Also there are ways to, sort of, fake it.

1. Play with articulation, imply it.
Actually, play it low and soft, only loud enough sound of guitar to be barely audible.
Audience will be tricked into hearing the nonexistent.

2. Sweeps and rakes.

3. And then, there is this one, I use it all the time, can't tell you how it's done.

[bennybeebop]

Thanks for the replies.

I never really got taught how to pick, I just did what came naturally. I anchor my little finger on the scratch plate which is not ideal but I find it gives me more control and precision.

I will perhaps have to bite the bullet and build up a better technique from scratch and take it as an opportunity to sing what I'm playing so that I learn to hear the intervals. I guess I need to speed up my thinking as well as my technique and I think that might help.

It will be a lot of work and I don't know if I have the patience, it'd be a lot easier if I was still in my 20s (I'm 34). However, it is my goal to take my playing to that next level that fewer guitarists reach.

The question is, what technique should I use? Do I go for the floating fist approach, the benson technique or simply adapt what I already do?

[GuyBoden]

I'm convinced that some folk get more enjoyment from watching the guitarist's fingers moving fast up and down the fretboard than the music.

[jasonc]

I'm convinced that some folk get more enjoyment from watching the guitarist's fingers moving fast up and down the fretboard than the music.

I'm convinced that some folks don't want to be the only ones on stage that can't hang when someone calls an uptempo tune. Sometimes you have to play fast tunes and playing fast tunes has certain challenges. Why is it so wrong to ask how to overcome those challenges? I can't think of anything quite as dull as listen to a jazz group that only plays tunes at 120bpm all night. For the record I'm not a fast player but for the past year I've really been trying to get my chops together for the very reason I just offered. I've been on stage and been the only one who couldn't keep up and it sucks.

[ecj]

I'm convinced that some folks don't want to be the only ones on stage that can't hang when someone calls an uptempo tune. Sometimes you have to play fast tunes and playing fast tunes has certain challenges. Why is it so wrong to ask how to overcome those challenges? I can't think of anything quite as dull as listen to a jazz group that only plays tunes at 120bpm all night. For the record I'm not a fast player but for the past year I've really been trying to get my chops together for the very reason I just offered. I've been on stage and been the only one who couldn't keep up and it sucks.

Good post. It's extremely uncomfortable to be the guy that can't hang on fast rhythm changes.

I'm always flabbergasted by the anti-technique crowd in jazz circles. If you love blues and BB King, I guess I kind of get it, but you're posting on a jazz, forum. The music of Charlie Parker and John Coltrane.

You gotta be able to hang.

[jasonc]

A jazz forum....and in the Technique section no less.

[ecj]

So unmusical!

Too many notes!

[Melodic Dreamer]

Who were those two dudes? Their guitars sound funny!

[andrew_k]

Years ago I was stuck around 130 for a long time. What made me get past that plateau
was really slowing down and analyzing my technique. You're not going to wake
up one day with faster muscles. You're going to have become more efficient with the movements you make. This means getting rid of exaggerated motions. It sounds counterintuitive to slow down to get faster but it worked for me. Accuracy and efficiency will be the key to getting faster.

Absolutely, efficiency is it, meaning:

1. Minimising movement. Work towards having your fretting hand fingers barely moving away from the strings, and couple this with tiny pick movements.

2. Minimising effort. Play with only just enough finger pressure on your fretting hand to get the note to sound cleanly and no more. I use to have a self made sign hanging on my wall saying 'The Principle of Effortlessness'. I was trying to drill into my head the need to play with absolutely minimal effort. When people see someone who performs some skill at an amazingly high level they invariably say 'Oh, they make it look so easy...'. This I believe is a function of a large amount of practice done in a deliberately effortless fashion. The thing to remember with practice is, our brains don't discern. Meaning, the area of our brain responsible for motor control and learning (ie. skill acquisition) has no idea whether our technique is correct, effortless and efficient. Our brains will simply program in whatever it is we continually repeat. I actually consciously monitor the tension in both hands to make sure I am practicing with as little effort as possible. Imagine if we put a series of rubber bands around each pair of fingers on our fretting hands and then attempted to play quickly. It would never happen! However internally this is almost exactly the effect that excessive tension has.

3. Play with just the very tip of the pick. A great tool for helping to master this can be found at: Stylus Pick

4. Practice for long periods at tempos that feel easy, working on all the points above. Playing quickly is akin to learning to ride a bike. Once you have mastered riding a bike it isn't too difficult to pedal a little bit faster. The key I believe is large amounts of easy, efficient practice to really program in the requisite skills.