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Is there an engineer out there who can quantify the above relationship?
The reason I ask is that if you watch any of Robert Conte's videos on Youtube and see what he can do with a .46mm Dunlop bendy Nylon, you start to ask yourself why am I using a rigid 3mm.
I can understand the need of Gypsy Jazz player who are primarily acoustic players, but for the rest of us, using lightweight picks really removes a lot of left hand technique problems - it doesn't destroy tone either. After all, if you're using an electric, you've got a tone control on the guitar (usually) as well as on the amp.
The reverse of the above is also true - the heavier the pick, the more strength you need in you left hand, the more effort it takes to play fast.
I hope that some engineer would be able to at least come up with an equation where we could all work out just how much work fun is.
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05-29-2014 12:46 PM
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How do you figure?
Originally Posted by nu_mike
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I don't get this either
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I suspect the OP is left handed
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Conti uses a 0.38 Dunlop nylon. There's also a 0.46, which is also white, and they're easy to mistake for one another. No question but that Conti can fly around the guitar using a super-thin pick. I've used one a lot and gotten used to it, though lately I've worked also with Fender Thin and Medium picks because I'm working on J.C. Stylles' Benson picking thing and those picks seem better suited to it. For a long time I played heavy (or extra heavy) picks but I don't care for them anymore.
I don't know what hand strength has to do with it, frankly.
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IMO a thicker pick is analogous to a woodwind instrument player using a thicker reed. More dynamics, better tone, but requires better technique. If you find a heavy pick requires more effort I suspect you're trying to muscle the pick through the string. You need to lighten up and let your technique do the work.
As for tone- my opinion is that more mass generally equals bigger tone. Whether you think that's "better" is subjective. Personally, I do.
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Originally Posted by nu_mike
I use very heavy picks, sometimes I use 8mm thick picks with a round point, I find that I use less strength/pressure with my picking hand because the pick does the work. I can "skate" on the strings.
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Heavier picks doesn't affect my speed. I don't get how pick choice would affect your speed. Speed I think has to do with technique, not pick choice. At least that's my experience.
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I think it fair to say that is common for young guitarists (-who seek advice from fast guitarists on how they too can become fast) to hear that a thick pick is important, if not downright essential. Originally Posted by smokinguit
This makes Conti unusual in that he is blazingly fast and his lines are 'clear as a bell' but he use the thinnest pick made. Individuals vary, of course, but the suggestion that a thick pick can increase one's speed is widespread.
The idea seems to be that a thicker pick doesn't give when pressing against a to-be-picked string, whereas a thin pick gives and that slows one down. Also, the thicker pick is supposed to allow for more precision because, again, it doesn't give when making contact with a string.
I don't know how much actual lab work has been done to test these two related ideas, but both ideas are widely held. It is the unusual fast guitarist, such as Conti, who uses a very thin pick. Most real fast players use a much heavier one. (For that matter, most strummers use a heavier pick than Conti does!)
The super-thin pick generates precious little volume, much less than a thicker one would. That difference is real. Though it doesn't matter so much if you're playing through an amp.
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Mark, I think pick stiffness does affect speed. When the bottom of the pick 'gives' against the string the top of the pick travels much further past the string than if you used a stiff pick. Further travel = slower.
I've known guys who play very fast with a thin pick but what they do is choke way down on the pick so there's very little room to bend and bend it a little with their thumb to give a kind of curved spine to make the pick more rigid and stiff.
Picking "speed" is a misnomer because it's not really speed in the miles per hour sense, playing fast is really more about efficiency. Economy of motion. I could beat an Olympic sprinter in a race if he had to run twice the distance.
When you start off practising a new lick slowly, the slow speed allows you to make all kinds of inefficient actions like making the pick travel further past the string than it has to, and lifting your fingers higher off the strings. As you speed up the metronome faster and faster, you're forced to move more and more efficiently in each successive jump in speed. Really focusing on being efficient and breaking licks down into very small groups of notes and bringing the very short bits up to speed, rather than tackling a whole line really helps me get a fast piece up to speed in less time.
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I would have thought that the thicker the pick the tighter the grip needed creating more tension in the hand and slowing it down.
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Yes, that is the dominant view. It seems plausible. One thing about Conti's use of a thin pick is that, unlike a stiff/ thick one, his stroke does not displace the string. With a heavy / stiff pick, you're pushing the string out of the pick's path; the super-thin pick does not displace the string but instead, snaps across it. If you notice Conti's right hand when he is playing fast, the motion is extremely efficient. Originally Posted by teok
Check this vid around the 1:30 mark.
You could take the opposite view of the one you stated: if you want to play fast, why do you start by using a stiff pick that moves the string away? Conti says that many guys who use thick / stiff picks sometimes get them "caught" between strings. (I've had that happen, so I know what he is saying.) That doesn't happen with a very thin pick.
Either way, I'm now using a much greater pick angle when I play---I'm working with J C Stylles' tutorial on Benson picking---and when the pick is at a 45-degree angle, you're striking strings with both sides of the pick and never coming in the fairly flat away assumed by the argument in favor of a stiff pick. It's a whole different ballgame.
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How about pitch?
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Two observations on the Cherokee Robert Conti Jazz Guitar video:
1. he is holding the thin pick fairly close to the tip, adds a little rigidity
2. he hybrid picks, I've always believed that a thin pick maintains a closer volume and tone to that of the fingers.
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As a hybrid picker, I 've searched a lot for a pick that best balances finger/pick tone, and settled on d'andrea pro plecs...but it's as much about the material as it is thickness...
I suppose if you use a lot of nail, a thin pick might replicate...not a sound I like.
I also yhink it's weird to assume people who use a thicker pick are coming in flat against the strings.
You should play with what feels comfortable and gives you the tone you want--that simple.Last edited by mr. beaumont; 05-30-2014 at 11:30 AM.
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Bensons said somewhere that you have to have a yin/yang thing going on: you either use a heavy pick and light strings (shredders, gypsy jazzers), or a thinner pick and heavy strings (Benson, Pass, etc.). I think that's generally good advice to get the best combo of tone and technique.
That being said, I know that DiMeola used a thin pick and thin strings on his old 70s electric work, and his tone is pretty amazing, and obviously his technique is, as well. He used a heavy pick and light strings on the acoustic stuff.
Seems like different things work for different folks. I've had success with the Benson guidance on this. Angle is huge, too. I can't play fast unless I approach the strings from a 45 degree or greater angle. I'm not sure how people who play flat to the strings can do it.
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I've been all thumb for a good while now, so I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I can pass along a bit of advice from Steve Khan. He told me he started out with heavy strings and a light pick, and the lighter his strings got and the heavier the pick got, the happier he became with his tone and technique.
There are so many options for playing this instrument, and each choice (pick thickness, string gauge, action, posture, type of guitar, type of amp, effects, etc) open up certain artistic possibilities and eliminate others. It's always illuminating to check out the players that you admire and see if you can detect any patterns in their approach. These days, the google and youtube make for a much more efficient process than trying to get a bootleg VHS of Wes at Ronnie Scott's or talking to a guy that knew a guy that had a friend who saw Ed Bickert once. That said, it's important to realize that you can love someone's playing deeply and still have their physical approach or concept be not right for you.
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Doesn't string tension matter too?
A lot of those gypsy guitars are running 10's or 11's on a 26.5" scale...strings move very little when hit with a pick.
What's "thick" anyway? For picks and strings, I mean?
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I now also tend to agree with that Benson Yin Yang concept.
Before, I never really put so much importance in the actual size or thickness of a pick; I simply stuck with what was easily available and comfortable for me to play with...
After playing JD jazz III on my flat strung Archtops for many years, I went back to my old faithful Nylon 0.60mm and now the Nylon 0.73mm is pretty much my favorite.
The thread on "thunk" inspired me to experiment with picks in order to get closer to the Farlow, Bean tone I am so much digging.
I don't think it has affected much my technique, I have retained pretty much the same angle but the attack definitely feels more bity and clicking. I have the same speed as with the jazz III, I would say; obviously I don't let the pick flapping fully flat. But it is the tone that had the most dramatic change it is really thunking now
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Good question Jeff, we may all be expressing opinions based on different baselines for thickness. I recorded myself playing an ES175 with TI Swing 13s using a Fender thin pick, followed by a recording with same set-up using a Dunlop Jazz III, much preferred the Jazz III in tone and "pickability" does the Jazz III fall into thin (probably not), medium or heavy based on standards of the forum members participating in this post? I have lately switched to DAVA Jazz which "feels" thinner than a Jazz III, but that could be due to design more than material. pick/point. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Interesting observation. I feel like he gypsy guitarist's strings still give a lot more than a heavy flat-strung arch top, given how much bending and vibrato goes on. Maybe I'm wrong on that point. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Try one...you've never felt .010's tear up your fingers like that! Originally Posted by ecj
Something with gypsy jazz guitars, you can definitely bend and vibrato, but you pick back nearer the bridge, where the strings aren't moving under that heavy pick much at all.
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Interesting ideas. Btw, I dont see Conti doing any hybrid picking in the solo in that clip.
For myself, I don't see any correlation between "thickness" and speed. No matter what pick I use I have to make adjustments in angle , timing, pressure..there are so many variables. To me you're going to play the fastest and have best articulation with whatever feels comfortable, after that it's about tone and weight. I've found the stiffer the pick, the less grip. You can really pinch a thin pick but I let a thicker pick float more in my fingers so my sweet spot is a smaller stiffer pick (that sounds really bad)
(so funny how one little letter can affect your whole post. Really watching the spell check here. )
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Michael,
Keep the "r" in the correct place and we're good
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I've primarily been playing my Gitane (26.5" scale) with .010's and this is completely true. Wegen 3.5mm pick and those strings are not moving. But with a gypsy guitar/strings, you need that heavier pick to get the sound and bark. I've tried my 2mm picks, and it's just not the same thing. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
However, I hate my Wegen when used with my Archtop. Another thing I consider is that the string spacing on the Gitane is more substantial than my archtop, and the thicker pick almost becomes necessary (for me at least) to properly gypsy pick.
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