Relationship between Pick Thickness and Left Hand Technique

[MarkRhodes]

I also yhink it's weird to assume people who use a thicker pick are coming in flat against the strings.

I'm not sure anyone assumed this, but let's take it another way.

Consider a Fender Medium pick.

Take a guy who holds a pick the way most beginners are taught to and plays on a guitar in a store.

Another guy then takes the same pick, a Fender Medium, but holds it an angle like George Benson does, and plays the same guitar.

The very different result has to do with the different angle of pick attack and not with the thickness of the pick. It's the same pick, same thickness, but the result of a narrow edge, a blade, hitting a string is different than a flatter plane hitting it. The resistance is different and its displacement through the finger / thumb is different.

An angled pick is very different than the same pick without the angle, or at a much lesser angle.

Comparisons of thickness can only be useful when the pick attack is the same. I don't think anyone has worked out the comparison of say, a Fender Medium at 45-degrees versus 15-20 degrees versus coming in flat. (Or a Jazz III or a Primetone 246, and so on.)

I think Benson uses a Fender Medium. I think our own Philco used a Fender Thin for his superb video on Benson picking. J C Stylles definitely uses a Fender Medium in his tutorial on Benson picking.

[Lionelsax]

I use very heavy picks, sometimes I use 8mm thick picks with a round point, I find that I use less strength/pressure with my picking hand because the pick does the work. I can "skate" on the strings.

Really ? An 8 mm pick ? Have you ever tried with a stone ?

[mr. beaumont]

I would NEVER teach someone to pick in a way that the pick face hits flat...I don't know any teacher that would.

[Lionelsax]

I'll get myself in trouble again with this but: geez the playing in that vid sounds awful. So lame it's shocking.
Beginners and pros alike: don't "play" like that. Learn from that vid what NOT to do.

No, it really begins at 2'00... And it's not so bad, I like it (a little bit like Scofield).
OK, in terms of sounds... It reminds me my alter ego in Youtube.

[Philco]

Consider a Fender Medium pick.

I think Benson uses a Fender Medium. I think our own Philco used a Fender Thin for his superb video on Benson picking. J C Stylles definitely uses a Fender Medium in his tutorial on Benson picking.

I know there are some other "Benson" pickers on this list who would agree that the Fender Medium (particularly the faux tortoise shell ones) are a thing of wonder.
I can only imagine it's a strange piece of luck that this modest plectrum embodies everything that this particular technique requires.
1 Big enough to grip just the corner.
2 Flexes and moves between your fingers but doesn't bend.
3 Has the exact perfect point and edge shape
4 Allows sweeping in either direction
5 Sounds great…with a little snap
6 Can be turned on an angle….even 90 degrees…….and still make a sound.
7 Cheap.

Actually Mark…in that vid I made I am using a Blue Chip Large Jazz .035 but as soon as I finished the vid I went back to a Fender. A year and 2 guitars later I'm still using a Fender Medium.

To add to this discussion I would add that the string gauge and pick gauge are connected.
Especially re the Benson technique.
I use flat wound TI Benson strings, so from .014 to .053. They are very thick on the bass strings and when they age a bit they don't vibrate very much. The pick just glides over them and on to the next string. There is no digging in or string movement to complicate the equation. The note is very short. This is a big part of the whole technique. It all works together. Not very "modern" though.

This set up is specifically for Bebop lines with an old school sound.

For other styles (that I deal with everyday in my recording work…..acoustic, Nylon string, 12 string, Rock and Blues) I just slightly change the grip and go back to a traditional technique.
And I also change plectrums to get different sounds and attacks.
Different horses for different courses and all that!

[M-ster]

These, right?
Amazon.com: Fender 351 Classic Celluloid Guitar Picks 144-Pack (1 Gross) - Shell - Medium: Musical Instruments

[ecj]

These, right?
Amazon.com: Fender 351 Classic Celluloid Guitar Picks 144-Pack (1 Gross) - Shell - Medium: Musical Instruments

Yep. I'm a convert on those, too. They're the greatest!

[Kiefer.Wolfowitz]

I use very heavy picks, sometimes I use 8mm thick picks with a round point, I find that I use less strength/pressure with my picking hand because the pick does the work. I can "skate" on the strings.

reminds me of

I had a vivid image of an Olympic diver bouncing on a diving board in preparation for a dive. It reminded me of the pick on the string. If I could “bounce” on the string—effectively sensing the equal force between the string and my hand—all I’d need to do to make the string sound would be to give up my resistance. Like the diver on the diving board, I could let the springiness of the string do more of the work. Rather than being propelled away from the string, I would cease meeting the string with equal force, and instead, give up. Let the string win. By imagining the string almost cutting up through the pick (on a downstroke), it felt as though the string played itself and I was there to create just enough friction to get things started.

Julian Lage
Digging deeper: The diving-board effect
Premier Guitar 2012 June

[fep]

These, right?
Amazon.com: Fender 351 Classic Celluloid Guitar Picks 144-Pack (1 Gross) - Shell - Medium: Musical Instruments

The most common of all picks. I started on those, moved on to others (for decades), and am now back to using them again.

About 12 cents each.

[MarkRhodes]

Yep. I'm a convert on those, too. They're the greatest!

Yeah, me too. I also have some Fender Thins. (I'm working back up to a Medium from a nylon .38 and the Thin was my way-station.) I picked up a half dozen just yesterday. I don't mind this color but if the store had had any of the "Confetti" ones in stock (-they have splotches of white and red in them, which makes them easy to spot on the floor; these tend to blend into whatever they land on...) I would have bought those.

I think if I took the money I spent trying other, more expensive, picks over the past few years, I could've bought enough of these to last me all my days.

By the way, does anyone who uses a Medium to pick Benson style ever wear a pick out?

[MarkRhodes]

The most common of all picks. I started on those, moved on to others (for decades), and am now back to using them again.

About 12 cents each.

I paid a quarter a piece yesterday, but that was in-store. It's a shop that's almost old as I am, caters to band students and rents pianos: I give 'em some business even though I could get some things cheaper online. (And I do sometimes go that route...) That's where I get manuscript paper. It's where I got my first copy of Mickey Baker's book (Volume 1), and also the second copy, which I worked through much more seriously. I'm thinking of buying a third copy because the second one is all marked up. Not a bad thing, but working through the whole thing anew might be a good idea.

[ecj]

By the way, does anyone who uses a Medium to pick Benson style ever wear a pick out?

The edges of mine get kind of scraggly after a few months, and I toss them out. I can usually tell it's time to switch out for a new one when my thumb rubs all of the "Fender" lettering off.

[MarkRhodes]

The edges of mine get kind of scraggly after a few months, and I toss them out. I can usually tell it's time to switch out for a new one when my thumb rubs all of the "Fender" lettering off.

That sounds like a good rule of thunb. Now if I could just to that long without losing them. (Usually I know where they fell but I don't want to move what I'd have to in order to get them back.... ;o)

[Michael Kaye]

Picks are like socks in the dryer.......

they hit hit the floor then promptly warp in to some other dimension....

[monk]

. I don't mind this color but if the store had had any of the "Confetti" ones in stock (-they have splotches of white and red in them, which makes them easy to spot on the floor; these tend to blend into whatever they land on...) I would have bought those.

Those "in the know" refer to these as Clown Vomit picks.

[Petimar]

I would have thought that the thicker the pick the tighter the grip needed creating more tension in the hand and slowing it down.

it it is exactly the opposite. Heavier pick means use LESS tension between the thumb and index finger. The pick does the work.

When one uses a thin pick, you must squeeze the thumb and index finger together because the pick flexes so much. You have to PUSH the pick through the string.

[edh]

it it is exactly the opposite. Heavier pick means use LESS tension between the thumb and index finger. The pick does the work.

When one uses a thin pick, you must squeeze the thumb and index finger together because the pick flexes so much. You have to PUSH the pick through the string.

exactly what I have found using thick picks. I use a Little Stubby 2.0

I like the tone I get from it.

[monk]

Conti says that many guys who use thick / stiff picks sometimes get them "caught" between strings.

This happens because the player sticks the pick into the strings too deep. Ideally, only the TIP of the pick should touch the string.

I solved this problem by using a STYLUS brand pick which is designed to train the muscle memory to gauge the proper depth of picking. The pick has a cone shaped tip that will hang on the string and stop you if you insert the pick too deeply into the strings. If I remember correctly, it was developed at Berklee College. I used one exclusively to practice for a long time and trained myself to just touch the string with the tip of the pick.

It definitely forced me to focus on the finer points of picking and helped my technique.

[Kiefer.Wolfowitz]

I think it fair to say that is common for young guitarists (-who seek advice from fast guitarists on how they too can become fast) to hear that a thick pick is important, if not downright essential.

This makes Conti unusual in that he is blazingly fast and his lines are 'clear as a bell' but he use the thinnest pick made. Individuals vary, of course, but the suggestion that a thick pick can increase one's speed is widespread.

The idea seems to be that a thicker pick doesn't give when pressing against a to-be-picked string, whereas a thin pick gives and that slows one down. Also, the thicker pick is supposed to allow for more precision because, again, it doesn't give when making contact with a string.

I don't know how much actual lab work has been done to test these two related ideas, but both ideas are widely held. It is the unusual fast guitarist, such as Conti, who uses a very thin pick. Most real fast players use a much heavier one. (For that matter, most strummers use a heavier pick than Conti does!)

The super-thin pick generates precious little volume, much less than a thicker one would. That difference is real. Though it doesn't matter so much if you're playing through an amp.

If the material and design are identical....

The Guitar Craft picks are made of Delrin. For a given thickness, they are firmer than picks of other materials, at least in my experience. Dunlop also sells some delrin picks.

[MarkRhodes]

Those "in the know" refer to these as Clown Vomit picks.

Clown Vomit, eh? I think I'll stick with "Confetti" !

[MarkRhodes]

If the material and design are identical....

The Guitar Craft picks are made of Delrin. For a given thickness, they are firmer than picks of other materials, at least in my experience. Dunlop also sells some delrin picks.

I have some Delrin picks made by Fred Kelly. I ordered some of his thumb picks and decided to try a few flat picks just to see what they were like. I wasn't wild about the flatpicks but then, I wasn't trying to use the Benson grip at the time. I might try and find them and see how they do now. I did find them to feel firmer than regular picks of the same gauge.

[Philco]

Clown Vomit, eh? I think I'll stick with "Confetti" !

Hey Mark I have a bunch of those confetti Fender Mediums and they really feel quite different to the brown ones.
They feel thicker. So the point feels rounder. They also sound quite different.
The white ones sound different and feel different as do the black ones.

But the brown ones actually have a specific sound. It's a real high pitched scrape when striking the string at an angle.
It's actually a "good" sound.
Anyway they are so cheap it's possible to have a bunch of all the different colours and find your preference.

I've also tried all the bigger triangle Fender Mediums….Martino used to use a heavy one of those.
The shape of the tip (wideness) is not suitable for playing at an acute angle so they don't really work for that.
But they feel great to hold.

[MarkRhodes]

Hey Mark I have a bunch of those confetti Fender Mediums and they really feel quite different to the brown ones.
They feel thicker. So the point feels rounder. They also sound quite different.
The white ones sound different and feel different as do the black ones.

But the brown ones actually have a specific sound. It's a real high pitched scrape when striking the string at an angle.
It's actually a "good" sound.
Anyway they are so cheap it's possible to have a bunch of all the different colours and find your preference..

Thanks, Philco. If memory serves---and mine is sometimes a less than ideal servant--the confetti ones felt slicker. I don't remember the tips. But I now consider it settled: I'm sticking wit' the the brownies!

[MarkRhodes]

This happens because the player sticks the pick into the strings too deep. Ideally, only the TIP of the pick should touch the string.

I solved this problem by using a STYLUS brand pick which is designed to train the muscle memory to gauge the proper depth of picking. The pick has a cone shaped tip that will hang on the string and stop you if you insert the pick too deeply into the strings. If I remember correctly, it was developed at Berklee College. I used one exclusively to practice for a long time and trained myself to just touch the string with the tip of the pick.

It definitely forced me to focus on the finer points of picking and helped my technique.

I agree about the cause of a pick getting stuck between the strings. With a .38, though, it won't get stuck even if you stick it in too deep because it's, well, all 'give' and no 'stick.' The pick really snaps past the string rather than displacing it.

I had a stylus pick back in, what, the 80s? (Are they still made and sold?) That's when I wanted to play super fast like hard rock / metal players. I don't recall what happened to mine. (It cost around 15 bucks, I think, so I just had the one.) But with a Medium pick held at an angle, the pick can't get in too deep between the strings, so getting 'caught' isn't a big problem for me. (God knows I've got enough other problems...)

O, here's the link to one at Amazon:
Amazon.com: Stylus Pick Kit - The Ultimate Speed Picking Method: Music
Comes with a CD; I don't think mine did. Maybe a cassette back then, but I don't recall that.....

[monk]

Another thing that some players do, if using a 351 type pick, is use the shoulder of the pick to pluck the string rather than the tip. This provides a wider, rounder surface that glides more easily over the string and gives a fatter tone than when using the tip.

Robben Ford has stated in interviews that he grips the plectrum in this manner. The late Clarence White reputedly did so and several contemporary bluegrass guitarists do the same.

I prefer a heavier pick for the same reasons that others have expressed herein, the larger mass creates a bigger note over a thinner pick just as heavier strings sound fatter than thin strings.

Regardless of the gauge of strings or thickness of picks we choose individually, control and relaxation are the goals that we are striving for. Developing a technique that serves our needs, completely, requires examining the mechanics of picking on a microscopic level when we practice. Personal choice of plectrum and strings will establish the parameters we have to work with individually.

I think that making a firm choice (of plectrum and strings) and sticking with it long term while solving the physical mechanics will yield more consistent results than changing picks and strings every few weeks. Experimentation is good up to a point but it must be realized that the tools don't do the work by themselves.

Best Regards,
Jerome