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Sorry but that's not necessarily true. A lot of, or even most, musicians aren't the most articulate bunch of folks. And then a lot of guys came up figuring stuff out for themselves. They can play great stuff, but hell, they don't know what it is. People who KNOW it, don't need to explain it, unless they start teaching, then they have to figure out what to call it.
Originally Posted by Richb
I attended a Chick Corea seminar not too long ago. It was kind of funny. He didn't remember what the minor scales were called and said there were three whole tone scales. There are two. And his bass player had to tell him what was a melodic minor from a harmonic minor or natural. It's not that he doesn't KNOW this. Clearly he does. But he's not in the business of articulating it. He plays them and writes them. He doesn't have to explain them, ever. Maybe when he was attending Berklee.
I used to play with a great pianist by the name of Jessica Williams. Check her stuff out if you don't know who she is. Chops of Oscar Peterson, but modern bop. She can play anything. I wrote a couple of pieces for her to play with some unusual chords. The chord symbols explained what they were, but she kept looking at me lost. "Is this what you mean?" She was no teacher, yet we were very close friends. She KNOWS what she's doing, but she's well past the point of thinking about it.
I was with the great pianist Monty Alexander. He admittedly couldn't teach anybody anything because he doesn't know anything. He's one of those guys who doesn't know what chords are called or how to read music. But he's one of the great piano players - chops as good as anybody. The great trumpet player Art Farmer was exactly the same way. I met him in Vienna. I played with his son. His son, a mediocre bass player at best -- but great guy if he's reading this!! -- said his father thought we were all geniuses because we understood all of this stuff. ART FARMER!!!
Most of the great musicians can always point to some beloved nobody teacher who nobody ever heard of, who wasn't really a player, but who taught them how to playe their instrument THE RIGHT WAY. Of course some musicians are great teachers. Some musicians have their heads so far up their butt that they'd never listen to a teacher unless he could play rings around everybody else.
I could play better than all of my college professors. Thank goodness I didn't get a head too big to be taught a thing or two.
And my former example - Charles Mingus. I studied with him. You think I wasn't going to listen to him because he couldn't play guitar? He wasn't even playing the bass by that time. You think I was going to cop an attitude that unless he can burn on Giant Steps I'm not going to listen to a thing he tells me? You think MINGUS wouldn't have anything to teach you????? And MINGUS studied with a guy named Lloyd Reese. Who the hell is Lloyd Reese? He wasn't even a player. But he was a genius. Taught Eric Dolphy too and Dexter Gordon, I think. Buddy Collette. YOu never hear anyone taking lessons from any of those guys.Last edited by henryrobinett; 05-13-2014 at 11:56 PM.
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05-13-2014 11:54 PM
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BS.
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Not meaning to be rude but I'm too busy to write more elaborately at the moment.
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We're not talking about bad students. We're talking about the ability to teach. It's found in every field. Most often it comes down to an ability to communicate, to inspire, to explain and the burning desire to make the complex simple and impart knowledge in a concise, clear and organized manner. And to observe when the student gets it or doesn't. And then how to troubleshoot when he or she doesn't.
Im not not saying that great players can't be great teachers. I'm saying that I haven't seen where being a great player makes you a great teacher. I've seen many great players suck at teaching. Many times they were so gifted they don't get the students who are slow. Or they've been great for so long they just don't remember when they were learning.
And most students dont don't need great players to teach them. That's almost a wasted resource. Get the great player to teach you when you're already playing your ass off. He doesn't want to talk to you about modes and picking. He wants to talk about he stuff he's interested in.
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I call BS on that... Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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the whole idea that folks who can't play might be good teachers was created by cats who can't play so they can continue their teaching careers. (IMO of course...)
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well of course. A great player will be a great player. Dan Wilson, George Benson, Rodney Jones, Pat Martino, Joe Pass, none of those guys needed lessons. (And I know pat studied with sandole but he told me personally that he learned almost nothing except about religion). Originally Posted by Richb
And Martino was the classic case of someone who can do something but pretended to not understand what i was talking about when I'd ask him specifics. Still, the absorption (as jeff put it) caused me to gain incredible bits of knowledge during that period of study.
Sandole who was a great teacher (according to legend), I would have to say I learned nothing from. Sorry and I know there are some big sandole fans out there and maybe that was me being deficient as a student but to me his whole thing could be summarized by the last thing he said to me when I informed him i was quitting to study with pat martino. He told me, "Jack , you will be destined to a life of mediocrity".
*THAT* is a good teacher??? lol.
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Yes it is. I've known so many great players in my life and every one of them was able to convey what they played even if they didn't know theory or how to read music. Great is great. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
As I said before, the entire myth was created to allow mediocre teachers to survive IMO
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George Benson, when he was already a famous and well-established master on the scene, once asked to study with my teacher. At that time, he respectfully declined to take him on as a student. Many decades later, when I heard this story, I asked why he refused to take on George as a student. He simply replied, "c'mon. George Benson does not need a teacher" Originally Posted by jzucker
As for Joe Pass, he was a very close, lifelong friend of my teacher's (who was a pall bearer at his funeral). After Joe died, my teacher wrote a tribute to him in JJG magazine, which including the following bit about Joe's teaching methods:
"I set up several clinics for Joe during which he talked about major and minor scales. I finally told him that the people attending knew about major and minor scales; what they wanted to learn was how to apply his harmonic concepts and how to create a chord solo. He took Satin Doll and went on to show how he would substitute chords a half step above or below the target chord. By the time he got through, everyone was thoroughly confused, because he played "Satin Doll" fifty different ways and harmonized it differently each time."
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I hate to follow that...
I tend to call speed what you can play without rehearsing... so obviously I'm not in the school of play it SLOWWW.
When your rehearsing something... have a performance etc... do what ever you need to... to cover, if that's starting slow or fast... whatever.
Being able to perform fast without rehearsing... personally I believe comes from technique. There are basic physical aspects of your body...and the physical shapes on the fretboard.... doesn't mater what your playing, which need to be reflected in what technique you choose to develop.
I've never really practiced much and I have decent technique, (much better when I was young),but I did choose a mechanical technique and stuck with it. I'm sure there are better, but I stayed with one system. I've gone through different approaches to improve etc... never had problems.
I somewhat agree with Richb's muting point, when you perform loudly or in some venues, it's required.
(my follow that comment was in reference to a different technique that was posted earlier)
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i took a couple lessons from joe pass and spent some time driving him around dc when he was in town there playing. His manager was a friend of my dad's. I was surprised how little he knew about music and theory. He was basically self taught and not a good reader. He could read chord symbols and developed his own working knowledge of theory but was basically self taught. Same with wes, martino, benson, etc.
When I studied with Martino, I was surprised that he was an extremely poor sight reader. Reading is , in itself a skill that is quite a bit different than actually improvising of course but I think it serves to illustrate how some of the best jazz guitarists didn't study formally and didn't know theory or how to read.
Farlow also didn't read or know theory.
I think what you see out of Martino with the 12 pointed stars and such is an over-compensation for his lack of formal training. I have spoken to several contemporaries of his who agree.
Martino is not one to analyze what modes of melodic or harmonic minor fit over a particular grid of slash chords for example...
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I agree except that I pick from the elbow and have no problems muting. The part I agree with is picking from the wrist. I pick from the elbow due to inability to use the wrist due to nerve damage. I'd much rather pick from the wrist. Originally Posted by Richb
However, I can play loud and with extreme amounts of overdrive and still mute the strings. The thing that makes muting more difficult is benson picking IMO...It's very hard to do that with benson picking but adam rogers seems to be able to do it.
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As a Philadelphian who considered studying with Sandole when I first moved to town, all I ever heard about him (beyond his reputation for having 'taught' Coltrane, Martino, et. al) was that he would spend most of the lesson time trying to convert you to his religion (Seventh Day Adventist, I believe)... Originally Posted by jzucker
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You can call BS on anything and everything. We don't have to agree. I gave you many direct examples of how this is true for me. If something is true, or appears to be true -- like in my life, I tend to believe it. And anyone calling my own life experience BS has got other problems. You can disagree without saying its ALL bullshit. I never did that. I said some cases. But you say in all cases, which os BS. There's are no absolutes. When I look to decide an opinion, I look to what I have personally observed. That's the only index I can quantify and trust. I don't take anyone else's opinions or conjectures. I look to what I personally know. Originally Posted by jzucker
My first real teacher couldn't play, but he taught me. Are you calling me a lier? Mingus knew nothing about the guitar and couldn't play at the time. Are you questioning the truth in this? Warren Nunes was a great player but only taught me the 7 Major Scale Patterns after two years of study. He had no idea how to explain how he played.
So what, I'm lying?
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Not saying you're lying but if you studied with Nunes for 2 years and only came out of it with 7 major scale patterns that says way more about you than nunes. It's the students responsibility to direct his own course of study. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
You're making the case that a teacher should be like a mother bird, chewing and partially digesting the worms before feeding it to the helpless children. I disagree with that premise.
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A couple of things...
I wish could define "can't play," because the amount of guitar teachers I've met who were terrible players is pretty small. Maybe in a big city with lots of competition these things have a way of self-adjusting?
Not every teacher is right for every student when it comes to private lessons. It's completely plausible that guitarist A could learn a bunch from a particular teacher and guitarist B, for a variety of reasons, would not.
A teacher needs to be able to do* what they're teaching, and be able to relate it. This doesn't really mean they have to be a "great" player--however we measure that. It's important (and I say this as a teacher) that a teacher does two things: Knows their limitations and that they are not afriad to refer a student elsewhere when they cannot be of help.
*sometimes technique and knowledge are interrelated, sometimes not as much. I learned most of what I know about improvising from a piano player. He couldn't play the guitar a lick. (Maybe that's why I'm messed, up, who knows) My point being he was a fine teacher for that because he had the knowledge and was a great improviser--on piano. He would not have been a good person to go to if I needed help with my picking technique.
Not all teachers are great for all things. I know my strengths and I know what I have no business teaching.
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Is any of this actually relevant to the original post?
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completely. The alternative - taking technique advice from random guys in a forum (many of whom don't have good technique) is kind of ridiculous... Originally Posted by TonyB56
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I will say that Banacos could absolutely play his ass off, and could easily do anything he prescribed. "Giant Steps" modulating through all 12 keys at 300+ BPM without breaking a sweat, all the ridiculous pentatonic and 12-tone stuff, huge ears, great time, etc. Originally Posted by Richb
for whatever reason, he decided he didn't want to be a performer. he never gigged... and I don't mean "he only played in a café during brunch" -- I mean the guy NEVER gigged.
nobody really knew what his deal was, he was always pretty vague and people didn't push it. maybe it was some sort of mental block or anxiety that he couldn't get over no matter how good he got. who knows.
but he could absolutely walk the walk, and anyone who heard him will tell you the exact same thing.
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It also depends on *WHAT* you are studying. Many cats in DC studied with either Asher Zlotnick or Larry Wooldrige. Asher was a theory/composition professor. Larry was a jazz/theory instructor. Neither of them could play over giant steps. Originally Posted by dasein
But both of them could teach a student to play by ear via ear training, sight singing and Larry was instrumental (pun intended) in me developing the dodecaphonics concepts that I still use to this day. Larry's contribution to guitar lore was teaching his students to develop melodic ideas that could enable the use of any note over any chord. For example, he had an exercise where he would enforce the use of F# over a G7 chord or E natural over a Cmin7 chord.
I don't think larry played much (at least at that point in his career). Zlotnick wasn't a jazz musician...
For what those guys taught, they didn't need to be players. However, if you want to learn something specific like benson technique or metheny technique or playing fast or learning to play over giant steps, you'd be a fool to study or get advice on those techniques from someone who wasn't an expert. Just like you'd be a fool to take ear training or sight singing from someone who couldn't read or didn't have a good ear. NO MATTER HOW GOOD A TEACHER you might think they are.
Study from the best musicians or the best practitioners of the particular art you are pursuing.
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basically i stand by my original comment. If you are attempting to learn anything advanced, don't come to a chat forum to learn. Sorry members...
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I think there is great merit to both styles- a great talent who can teach by example and a very articulate thoughtful instructor. What resonates with the individual is going to depend on that individual’s learning style and needs.
I'm what I've heard called a "why learner", the type of person who needs to see how the puzzle pieces fit together and understand 'why' things work. Once I can grok something I can move the pieces around and get very creative with it. My impression is that Henry is the same way. He's going to respond very well to clear unambiguous explanation, broken down as simply as possible. Which I'm sure also makes him a very clear articulate teacher of his skill. I hear in his music clips that he's obviously a very creative, outside the box musician, which fits that profile.
I also get the impression that Jack is very intelligent and is very good and intuiting lessons from hearing/seeing an example. I don't think he needs things broken down for him verbally as much. His learning style is probably more of the "don't waste my time telling me, just show me and I'll connect the dots on my own".
I'm not as good at jazz as Jack or Henry (yet ) but I am a pretty high level martial artist who has gone through the process of both learning and teaching a complex physical skill that has to translate from practice to a live environment, much like jazz. I've seen students that pick things up quickly just by seeing it done and use it right away, too much exposition will just confuse the issue for them. And it also seen students who need to be reined in and have things unpacked to very simple steps, but once they get it, they really get.
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Dear omfgzeroftw, your original question, how do I gain the speed to pick blazingly fast and the example you picked of Johnny Smith is good. Johnny Smith as you probably already know performed at both Birdland and with the New York Philharmonic Orchestra. He was an extremely well rounded musician. He's kind of virtuoso with the plectrum guitar. One small picking excercise to develop just the right hand/wrist is to put the Metronome on 40 bpm, on one string match each click with an upstroke then a downstroke, after this play 2 alternating strokes per click then 3 per click keep going until you can put 10 -12 alternate picked notes per click. Also do the same excercise but only upstrokes, and only downstrokes it won't happen overnight but eventually your right hand will fly.Remember to stay loooooooose at the wrist,be relaxed as possible. This excercise will do NOTHING for your left hand or your ability to shred arpeggios, melodic ideas or scales BUT it will give you a very loose, fast right hand which is 50% of the equation. Good luck, have fun, make sure you stretch, don't hurt yourself and stay looooose to burn!!!
Last edited by eddy b.; 05-14-2014 at 03:47 PM.
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Point taken. Originally Posted by jzucker
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If these words come out of your teacher's mouth, RUN! Originally Posted by jzucker
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