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Like I said in the OP there are no virtually no musicians in my area who would help me. Adding to this, there are no jazz musicians in the area. Most of the guitar players are bluegrass or country strummers. I have to travel about an hour to get to an area where anyone could give me any helpful advice. If I could, I wouldn't be on a jazz forum asking questions. A lot of what I know has been learned on the internet or from books on the internet. I don't really have people to jam with.
Originally Posted by jzucker
I understand that I will have to do the work. I just wanted to some advice on the subject. As well as getting on the right path to being able to eventually do it.
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05-13-2014 02:07 PM
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if you have to travel an hour, travel an hour. I commuted from washington dc to philadelphia once a week for a year and a half studying with Dennis Sandole and Pat Martino. 140 miles. That's nothing. I know guys traveling from DC to NY to study and guys coming from the midwest to NY to study. If you're serious, you'll find a way.
The problem with chat forums is that people who aren't domain experts feel the need to chime in with answers. If you want to learn how to play fast, play fast tempos and play with good technique, i'm afraid that you'll have to find someone who can do those things or has taught people how to do those things in order to get meaningful advice.
Random advice from chat forums on subjects like how to improvise, how to play fast, just ain't worth much.
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and besides, country and bluegrass pickers ought to be able to help you anyway...
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practice slowly
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The problem with finding local teachers is most people, even great players, aren't good teachers. And very often they don't know what's going on themselves.
Last edited by henryrobinett; 05-13-2014 at 08:24 PM.
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Henry,
I am wondering if you could share some of your experience is in trying to help your students learn to become more proficient pickers.
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I see some fallacy in going to a forum to give the advice not to listen to advices in forums.
So not only I wasted my time giving my opinion but I even damaged somehow the OP with an answer that is uneducated by default.
I always assume that everybody is aware that reading a forum is not like going to see the wonderful wizard but more like chatting in a pub or a bar, with all the typical good and bad. It's up to you to get all the different opinions and make the best of them. Do we really need the wise man saying not to listen to anybody? I find that offensive.
By the time you get to a forum shouldn't you have made up your mind already?
So no more answers here to requests for advices or opinions? Only face to face lessons?Last edited by GuitOp81; 05-13-2014 at 04:54 PM.
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Where are you at now? What can you handle 8ths at?
"How do I play faster?" Is tough to answer without some info.
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George Benson's playing would seem to argue against your point. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
if tension is the enemy of speed it would seem to argue against the Benson technique (or at least what people describe as such).
in other words, if you are gripping the hell out of that pick (so as to be able to play in the back seat of a bumpy car between cities you are gigging in).
To the OP - I agree with jzucker. Your best bet is to find a teacher. I highly recommend JC Stylles' program if you need to do it remotely. I've also heard really good things about Jimmy Bruno's academy, but it's a completely different approach.
Find the player you like the most, then find someone that teaches in that kind of style. There are a million different ways to go at it.
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I asked a couple of old pros (not guitarists) how
to play fast ......
they basically said dont sweat it , it will come along anyway
also I've noticed some kids can play fast
runs and flourishes (out of time but hey )
at a very young age naturally
some cannot
some kids have good rhythm , some not much
I think we all have different gifts and you play
to your strengths
fast and accurate is a bitch tho
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dam right man ... they're way fast Originally Posted by jzucker
Jz I'll never get to anything like your speed
but do you relax your picking hand when you
play fast , 16ths or whatever
or do you play harder/tenser ?
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This would be a good place to start. I am yet to even try and see how fast I can handle 8ths at. I assume it would be best to just take a jazz tune in band in a box and speed it up until I can't comfortably to 8ths? Help me out a little. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Again thanks for all the replys/help
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That's a big fat general question. If I could get all of my students to understand to take up one thing at a time, and to avoid adding complication when you're trying to practice something basic, I'd have accomplished something. The big thing is to even NOTICE when you're going off the plan and adding complication. There's something you're not understanding. Originally Posted by srlank
Almost always I'll give a student something to play -- I'll show them something simple. Within 15 seconds they're adding shit and making mistakes and not getting it. Stop. I'll correct it. No, play this. Same thing. I'll laugh and say, no, no -- this. Then we'll go more basic because they can't do it.
If you can't do something you don't understand it. Go more basic and come forward. This is more basic than just repetition. You can beat it into yourself through repetition, of course. And repetition is always necessary. But you have to understand it first -- both the concept and the mechanics
And then of course go very, very slow. Don't get frustrated. Enjoy the ride.
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regarding playing fast, as many have said, start slow. Use a metronome and vary the tempos. Don't get stuck in one general tempo. Practicing playing fast songs very slow. Relax.
With jazz it's so much more than physical dexterity. That part had me confused for many years. I'd work on chops and then go to a gig and we'd burn up Rhythm Changes or something and I'm munch it. I'd go back and practice technique again. No. It had NOTHING TO DO WITH TECHNIQUE. At least not in my case. It had to do with phrasing.
Now obviously playing fast has to do with technique. It has to do with knowledge of the fretboard and knowledge of the song. It has to do with relaxing the wrist and the arms and the hands and not tensing. It has to do with mastery of alternate picking (in my case) and legato, hammer on/pull offs. It has to do with knowing all of this stuff so well you don't have to think about it. Playing fast has everything to do with not thinking.
I had all that stuff down and still was having problems playing very fast bop tunes. This was several years ago. Phrasing. Phrasing. Phrasing.
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Couldn't disagree more. If you want to learn to play great, study with someone who's great. Even if they're not a good teacher you will gain way more than studying with someone who can't play but is a professional teacher. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
Pat Martino was a horrible teacher but I learned more from him than all my other teachers combined.
Dennis Sandole was reputedly the best teacher on earth. I learned almost nothing from him...
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Originally Posted by jzucker
maybe, maybe not. its an easy argument to make, and an easy argument to break.
Above, someone recommended a very affordable book of exercises by Corey Christiansen. That person finds them to be very helpful, as well as fairly standard and straightforward. Now, either you find those exercises to be effective or you don't. You haven't really provided any specific critical analysis of them though. Of course its possible that you haven't examined them at all, in which case it wouldn't be very reasonable for you to comment at all.
Mr. Christiansen has firmly established himself as a fine teacher, author, and player. I certainly believe that its fair to say that his accomplishments are more distinguished in this regard than anyone posting here.
Finally, extending your argument would lead to the case being made that only a master could responsibly advise that someone study The Advancing Guitarist, Leavitt's books, Patterns for Jazz, or likewise Giuliani's right hand studies, Segovia's slur and octave exercises, Pumping Nylon, etc. etc.
i don't think that's a very reasonable or responsible position to take.
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i try to play relaxed but keep in mind that due to spinal/nerve damage, I pick from the elbow when I play fast so intrinsically it's more tense than playing from the wrist because of the nature of the beast. When I was younger and prior to my injury I worked on playing very relaxed from the wrist. Originally Posted by pingu
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You gotta be the right kind of student to learn from someone who's got the knowledge but is a poor teacher... Originally Posted by jzucker
jack, do you think you top out faster since you adopted "elbow picking?"
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I think the only requirement is that you be motivated/dedicated. The whole "great player but poor teacher" is total hype in my opinion. Yeah, pat martino probably isn't the right guy to teach someone barre chords but if you want to learn something you have to study with someone who can either do what it is that they are teaching or someone who used to be able to play. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
It's no different than any other discipline really. If you don't know physics, you can't be a physics teacher.
How can you possibly teach someone how to play fast if you can't play fast?!? It means that whatever you're teaching them is most likely wrong.
Another example is playing over chord changes. Say I want to learn to play over Giant Steps and my choice of teachers is a guy who plays ridiculous over giant steps but is a poor teacher and someone who is an intermediate player who can't play over the tune but is a good teacher?!? Do you really think anyone would be better off with the intermediate guy? I think some of this stuff is just put out there as a way to equalize the field.
Regarding elbow, yeah, I can play faster than i used to but it's not nearly as precise or in the pocket. Very frustrating but that's life.
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Originally Posted by ecj
a fair point. i seem to remember someone describing the technique as requiring one to grip the pick very hard. its possible that my memory is faulty on this point. but if not, i would think that a very hard grip is not the answer regardless of the maestro's accomplishments and what he does - or does not actually do.
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i respectfully differ and think that's faulty. its true on theory (like physics, law, medicine), but much less true on physical acts - and playing fast is very physical. Originally Posted by jzucker
for example - very few piano teachers can execute the more challenging works of Liszt, Chopin, Stravinsky, Beethoven, yet they continue to successfully teach their students. Angelo Dundee was qualified to teach Ali. Freddy Roach for Tyson and Pacquiao, and many others. (Angelo was old and Roach has Parkinson's). Norv Turner for Troy Aikman. Bela Karolyi teaching the female gold medalist gymnasts etc.
None of these teachers could hold a candle to their training subjects/students.Last edited by fumblefingers; 05-13-2014 at 09:48 PM.
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Well that's what life's about - agreement or disagreement. I've known some great teachers who were terrible players. They could explain it all and had me read all kinds of things and exposed me to stuff I never would have known. Even Mingus couldn't play any more when he taught me. But he KNEW. I had a great guitar player teacher - Warren Nunes who couldn't teach his way out of a paper bag. But you could sit there and be amazed at what he did. But he couldn't explain anything to you. Originally Posted by jzucker
Music needs explanation. It need someone who can articulate and take the mystery out of it. I almost took lessons from Martino. I'm actually glad I didn't. I don't like his system at all. He's a great player though.
I studied with an old guy, Lee Havens, who treated the jazz guitar like it was a concert instrument. He was a friend of Howard Roberts and went to every seminar Roberts taught. So I learned Howard Roberts. This guy couldn't PLAY it. He was old. I don't think he ever could. But he could TEACH. He could explain it. I didn't need to watch anyone do it. I had records. I needed someone to explain it.
There are guys I know who are terrible teachers, but great players. I think they do more damage to their students than help. Often I have them later and have to fix all kinds of things the student just had no clue about. Yet they studied with this great player for a couple of years. They played some stuff well, but didn't know jack diddly. I think it's pretty terrible and irresponsible.
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no arguement on the "teacher needs to know what they're teaching." Originally Posted by jzucker
So the way I see it, if you're learning from someone who's not a good teacher but a great player, you're essentially learning through absorption..so I think in addition to the motivation and dedication piece (which is fewer students than most would like to believe) there also needs to be that ability to pick and glean the right info...the ability to read a teacher and really know what they have to offer...and when what they do or say is relevant to your goals...
that ain't easy.
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I know guys who can teach you how to play over Giant Steps yet can't do it themselves. WTF? I know guys who can play over Giants Steps but can't tell you how.
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Won't this result in everything sounding staccato? Can you use this technique to play fast legato lines? Originally Posted by Richb
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