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I personally use band in a box : I turn off the bass and piano and I'm left with a swinging drum machine. It's really helping me improve my time.
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05-10-2014 11:33 AM
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So, as an example relating to my post, what do we get when we play with a Band in a Box drummer?
We have basically a recording of a programmed approximation of swing feel and drum sounds.
The way I see it, we get pros and cons of playing along with this:
Pro:
The tempo will stay constant
Con:
Nothing is required of the player to be mindful of keeping a steady tempo (aside from not ignoring the BIAB entirely)
Pro:
An approximation of a swing drum sound is present
Con:
Nothing is learned about interacting with a drummer, as this preset drum sound will not communicate with the player - you can't set up hits or accent patterns, you can't go into different feels from chorus to chorus, etc.
Pro:
The process probably prepares you a little bit for playing with a beginner drummer/drum student
Con:
The process doesn't prepare the player for playing with an experienced/professional drummer who may move the time around and do more advanced displacements that might confuse a player who is used to hearing a very obvious indication of beat one for each measure
I'm not shitting on the idea, PJ - it works and in many instances is better than nothing. But it also, has its limitations.
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And if you use the "real tracks" in BIAB... to Jake's point, it's no longer "We have basically a recording of a programmed approximation of swing feel and drum sounds", rather it's an actual recording of real drums and a real drummer.
Originally Posted by Professor Jones
Last edited by fep; 05-10-2014 at 12:25 PM.
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Jake : of course nothing can replace making music with real people. But when you're practicing on your own, is there a better alternative to a drum machine ?
Mark : I know that one, it's in the jazz anecdotes book. The one in my sig is also in the book and is told by Cannonball Adderley.
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Band in the Box -it is a metronome!
a lot of jazz musuicians practise with it...
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I like the Aebersold cds, because you actually get to practice with a professional rhythm section. No interaction, but at least the feel is "real".
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Ah, thanks Fep, haven't used BIAB in a while, that's cool to know. Originally Posted by fep
PJ I'm not saying it's bad to practice with it, my whole point is that it has pros and cons, and it depends on what you're trying to achieve while practicing. Originally Posted by Professor Jones
For trying to keep tempo, playing with super slow clicks works well
For working on feel, playing with records probably works well
For specific rhythmic goals I think the metronome can often provide the most direct assistance
I don't think it's a bad idea to practice with BIAB or just the drum track from BIAB, I do it too with IrealB, it has its advantages and its limitations.
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The best practise is to play real concerts or gigs wit real musicians... Originally Posted by ecj
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I like Jake's point about context. If you don't have good time... you can test you time in any number of ways.
Anyway if you really don't have good time and don't really understand or are even aware of the many aspects of time...
You really can't begin working on more complex time concepts. As I personally believe with most aspect of performing jazz.... you need a solid foundation, a basic reference for everything to develop from. When you don't develop that basic reference... your going to hit walls, have problems, technical problems. And if you believe your just going to feel your way through... yea I lots of great stuff for sale.
For time to happen you need to be able to feel whats going on at the moment, sure, but you need to be aware of what may be developing, what and where a rhythmic feel may be going... and where it may end. When your in the moment, first of all... your late, and to have a chance of having a shape, (form) for rhythmic concepts... Whatever you want to term the use of rhythmic development... a groove, pocket, montuno ...
any type of Divisive or Additive rhythmic compositional or performance practice.
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metronome= practise jazz
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Metronomes are a good thing. :>)
I bet no one has kissed their metronomes.
I can't stop thinking about people kissing their guitars for some reason. Uggg
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I always advise students to make their choices from a position of strength: develop the skills necessary to take music from the grooves of a record (I've been at this a while…) and put it under your fingers, and then decide how much transcribing should figure in to your overall approach. Learn the basics of notation and the notes on the neck, then decide if you need to pursue Tommy Tedesco level sight-reading skills. The same applies to the metronome, there a different ways to fit it into your eventual approach, but if you can't keep a simple task* in sync with the metronome, you'll probably not have much luck keeping up with Ari Hoenig on the bandstand.
(for example, set the metronome at 72, feel it on 2 and 4 and play a quarter note melodic line through All The Things.)
I checked out the linked thread, and TruthHertz' post on Ben Monder. In the mid-90's there was a month or so that I lived downstairs from Ben in Brooklyn. That month, he was playing melodic minor scales and arpeggios with the metronome, the full range of the axe. The starting tempo was SLOW, and stayed that way for a long time, and incredibly smooth, I couldn't tell where he was shifting. by the end of the month. he still started slow, but worked it up to a burning tempo, again smooth and seamless.
Has anyone tried putting the metronome on a household task? See what happens if you wash dishes adagio, or check out largo while folding laundry...
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Practicing with a swing drummer recording is more fun.
For me...
It's a drill to keep my place, to try to be musical, adding space sounds better to me with a drummer... and it's fun.
This isn't the greatest (I'm average at best), but the drummers real good. Check out around 2:20 to the end, the drumming and comping came out pretty good. Pretty boring though without the drums. The drums are a BIAB realtrack.
Noodling over Autumn leaves:
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Agreed. I used to play with a bassist who's time was all over the place. He claimed that I was rushing when I was trying to push him up to the original tempo so I put a metronome on and said let's play. Within seconds he was dragging way behind and his reply was, gruffly, "Of course. It's a machine. It's not a human. I can't play with a machine." Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
That was years ago and to this day, he doesn't practice with a metronome and his time is horrible.
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Hey Fep,this is genius man,a real lesson in laying backand letting the music breathe i love it,as Reg said great feel man. Originally Posted by fep
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Echoplex, thanks for your encouragement.
I'm glad I did this. For me playing with a swing drummer (BIAB 'realtrack') made me realize there are these little things going on in the interaction that I wouldn't get from playing solo or with a metronome. This sense of laying back, adding space, getting into the groove... all those elements seem to be better practiced along with the drummer.
That last bit where I just play down beat, quarter note, comping. There's a lot more to that than just playing robotic quarter notes as I think that recording demonstrates. It seems so basic and easy, but there is a bit of subtle nuance to doing it that you have to hear and/or feel. In my opinion and coming from someone at my level of course.
If I were to think of Jake's concept's of pros and cons and practicing different ways for different skills.
I've stated the pros than I can think of, the cons... The main one I can think of is that I am relying or getting inside of the drummers beat. What if the drummer was playing off my time? In that case I better be really solid without the aid of a metronome or listening to a drummer. An interesting drill would to be having the drummer playing for 4 measures, then muted for 4, playing for 4, muted 4, playing 8, muted 8. playing 8 etc. I probably should experiment with that.
And then there's the rhythm skill of playing completely solo and having that time be solid and engaging. The obvious practice for that is to play solo, record it, critique.
Just brain storming.
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In that bootleg Pat Metheny clinic on YT he says that playing with a good drummer is best but playing with a drum machine is the next best alternative and preferential to playing with a bad drummer.
I've sent several letters to Billy Cobham asking him to hang out at my house and play while I practice but he hasn't responded.
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just to offer a counterpoint, when you play with a metronome, you are forced to hear all the subdivisions yourself. When you play with a drum machine or a virtual drummer you can cheat with the time. Paul Bollenback used to practice by setting the metronome for one beat a measure and he'd have it click on the and of 1 or something that is totally non standard.
Playing with a drum machine is kind of entertaining yourself more than practicing time . I would do both.
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^ yup. A point of reference is very very very important so you should always use a metronome. With that said the fewer points of reference you have the more you're really working on your time. Beating the metronome only on beat 1 of every measure (or better yet only on beat 2 or only on beat 4
) means you have to keep time with your internal clock much more than you would with a drum machine that is providing 8th notes and the 2 and 4 pulse and accents all without your help. It still gives you a point of reference to tell you if you're rushing or dragging though.
Another small point ... Beethoven used metronome markings (though it was relatively new then I suppose). But if you really are concerned with whether or not great musicians used metronomes then consider this. They most definitely did NOT use drum machines. Drum machines don't react to your playing. They don't challenge you to react to their playing. They don't explore the time feel the way a real drummer can. It's also commonly accepted that swing is not something that can be written down so it would follow that it can't be programmed into a drum machine. I feel like practicing time with a drum machine that has a stale awkward predictable sense (or lack thereof) of swing might even actively hurt your time-feel. I'd play with recordings if you want to hear drums. Or a drummer.
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most of the time I just play along with an actual jazz recording
playing with a good drummer is best... but since that's not always possible, playing along with a recording of Max Roach/Tony Williams/Elvin Jones or whoever is not a bad alternative
I wouldn't recommend BIAB to anyone. swings like a middle school jazz band, from what I've heard. it's true a recorded drummer can't react to you, but then again, neither can BIAB or a metronome. at least I don't have to worry about whether Art Blakey is swinging.
yes, you'll have to navigate your playing around whoever is soloing on the recording. but that can be a good thing as well. two solos going on at the same time means another element to listen and respond to. possibilities for call and response or a sort of improvised counterpoint. anything that forces you to listen more, get you out of your comfort zone, to respond to events in real time... all those things will make you a better improviser over time.
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Another great app is "tempo advance" - really versatile, I use it for a lot of things. I also previously made a demo of the app in response to a request in a different thread, would share the link again if anybody is interested.
I don't agree that you should *always* use a metronome. It depends on what you're practicing. Originally Posted by inwalkedbud
What if you are playing rubato or a tune that has a rubato section?
What if you are practicing (or testing) your own ability to keep time and make things feel good without a reference? That's something you need if you are performing solo or as the only member of a rhythm section.
I've always used the metronome a lot, but there are certain activities where it's better to not have it on.
Personally, I have done a LOT of practicing with the metronome both for general lines, comping, technique practice, as well as specific activities addressing different elements of time keeping.
I've worked so much on interacting with the metronome, and making sure I am locked in with a metronome that I realized at a certain point that I was more focused on whether or not I was playing accurate time than whether the music sounded good and felt good.
I'll be clear again I am NOT saying "never practice with a metronome." The metronome is a tool that is helpful in many practice activities. Know your goals for the activity and think about the best way to use - or not use - the metronome.
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I Studied with Karl Berger and he was looking for hisstudents to give each beat equal attention and what he referred to as note for note dynamics. He felt that if youdon’t give each beat equal attention you will rush or slow down, note for note dynamics makesyour lines have inflections and avoid a mono-tone effect in your solo’s.
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
True. Misuse of the word "always" ... the discussion had sort of fallen into a discussion of working on time at which point a metronome is very very important (if your time is weak then how do you know you aren't rushing or dragging without a point of reference.)
There are definitely some instances where not using the metronome is a good thing. For example, practicing a fast tune at a rubato ballad tempo can be enlightening. Technique sometimes requires mind-numbingly slow, tempo-less practice that gives you to examine your finger placement and all the nuances of your technique. Technique is of course an element of good time and vice versa. I'm sure there are many other instances as well
Good point! My bad.
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Uh...
Transcription won't help you improvise? Of course it will. Sorry if this is off topic but I have to ask... how do you transcribe?
I will grant this... transcription is a misnomer... the important part isn't writing it down (ie literally transcribing). It's listening a million times over to a great recording of a great player learning great lines and then shedding them and dismantling them and reassembling them and then turning them into your own lines. There's a lot of flexibility in what it can mean but transcribing might be THE most important part of learning to improvise.
Onto the metronome. My question is this: if you need to work on your time that implies that your time is less-than-perfect. If your time is less-than-perfect how can you tell if you're rushing or not? Answer: you probably can't.
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Ah, but there is more to good time than rushing vs dragging vs 'steady rate.' Originally Posted by inwalkedbud
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