Economy picking

[dyer-11]

Hello All.

I made a decision to change my picking method from alternate ( up - down ) to economy picking.
Why would someone pick this way or another has been widely discussed here on this forum.
My question is: how can I adapt economy picking into my playing while being so automatically used to alternate ?

Just a quick explanation: I have just picked up guitar after 8 years of not touching it at all.
I want to reinvent it for myself, hence the change of picking style.

At first I thought of some classical pieces ( Bach for instance ). There are a lot of arpeggios etc.
A lot of place to sweep.

Then I thought that I could get some bebop / swing themes from stanards transcribed and learn to play them in a new style of picking.

Basically my goal is to make it automatical, so I don't have to think about it.

Do You have any ideas / suggestions for me ?

Thanks a lot in advance

[ronjazz]

practice 5 hours a day, in 25-minute sections. focus on the smallest details. start with two strings only, then 3, then skipping strings. use a metronome. classical pieces are good, pick 5 and do a different one each day (Berklee Classical studies for pick-style guitar is good). make up exercises, write them out, change them as you improve. be creative in the practicing as well. you'll be well on your way in a couple of months. don't abandon alternate picking, it will be useful at times, combine the two concepts.

[cosmic gumbo]

Personally, trying to execute the heads to Charlie Parker's tunes forced me to come to grips with economy picking out of necessity. Most are hard to bring up to tempo using strictly alternate picking, and it forces you to incorporate some economy picking in a very balanced and organic way. Plus, learning Parker heads is great vocabulary.

[dyer-11]

@ ronjazz

Thanks, I've already ordered Berklee Classical studies for pick-style guitar on Amazon. Looks nice indeed.
Also searched www and found a few transcriptions strictly of Bach, whom I personally like a lot.
I also want to concentrate on all these small details, going very slowly working through new way of thinking.
But, having limited time, I don't want to spend whole time just adapting new picking technique.

Do You think that it would be reasonable to split my time into two parts: first one concentrated on picking only, and the other one concentrated on musicwise subjects not really paying attention to picking style ?

@ cosmic gumbo

Thanks, Parker is really great I have a plan to loop comping to these heads in each key, and then practice it one by one changing these keys. I thought this way I could also practice ears and neck positions using economy picking as well.

What do You think ?

[SamBooka]

Personally, trying to execute the heads to Charlie Parker's tunes forced me to come to grips with economy picking out of necessity. Most are hard to bring up to tempo using strictly alternate picking, and it forces you to incorporate some economy picking in a very balanced and organic way. Plus, learning Parker heads is great vocabulary.

I am "trying" to learn the head from Relaxin at Camarillo .. your assement is on the mark.

[fumblefingers]

Bruno's The Art of Picking May be helpful...

[AlainJazz]

I second the art of picking by Bruno. It took me about three months to get used to the new technique. During that time I played like crap. However it was worth it. Sort of taking one step back to take two steps forward.

[MattC]

Personally, trying to execute the heads to Charlie Parker's tunes forced me to come to grips with economy picking out of necessity. Most are hard to bring up to tempo using strictly alternate picking, and it forces you to incorporate some economy picking in a very balanced and organic way.

Sounds like the direction I've been moving in for the last year or so. I want to continue with alternate picking as my base, but am trying to incorporate some economy or sweeps or whatever you call it. For instance, in the 8th bar of Anthropology I've been practicing playing the C-7 arp with swept/repeated upstrokes. Tricky, but seems to be slowly getting there.

Today I was practicing a ii-V line using a major 7 as a ii 9. Specifically a chord shape we all know-4th finger on the root on the 4th string, 3rd,2nd and 1st fingers lined up on 3rd,5th and 7th of the chord on the other strings. Sweeping across the chord shape with all other notes in the line alternate picked. I find the sweep itself is still somewhat unfamiliar, and sometimes recovering the alternating technique in the right place is also tricky.

[jazzgtrl4]

Yup Jimmy Bruno the art of picking...i went from Alt to economy...playing was sh*t for months getting used to the new picking.

[GuyBoden]

I've predominantly been an economy picker since a teenager, that's 35+ years of playing, all I'll say is that maybe Alt picking has more precise timing, but each to one's own style.

[jzucker]

i would not recommend permanently changing to economy picking. If you want to play with a strong rhythmic pulse ala benson, martino, metheny, legrene, etc., economy picking should not be your full time goal. All of the guys I mention occasionally use economy picking for certain lines but they predominantly use alternate picking. Alternate picking is still the meat and potatoes.

When I play, 80% of what I play is alternate picking. If I want to express a line where the time and grove are ambiguous, I will express it with economy picking but i don't use it as the main technique.

Even frank gambale who is probably the best jazz oriented economy picker in the world uses mostly alternate picking when playing swing grooves.

[jazzgtrl4]

i would not recommend permanently changing to economy picking. If you want to play with a strong rhythmic pulse ala benson, martino, metheny, legrene, etc., economy picking should not be your full time goal. All of the guys I mention occasionally use economy picking for certain lines but they predominantly use alternate picking. Alternate picking is still the meat and potatoes.

When I play, 80% of what I play is alternate picking. If I want to express a line where the time and grove are ambiguous, I will express it with economy picking but i don't use it as the main technique.

Even frank gambale who is probably the best jazz oriented economy picker in the world uses mostly alternate picking when playing swing grooves.

Hey Jack, what about guys (and girl) like Jimmy Bruno, Adam Rodgers and Sheryl Baily. I believe they are all pretty strict economy pickers? no? How do they get a really great swing feel using mostly economy? Ive been doing economy picking but im thinking about going back and getting my Alt picking back together as well and mix the two.

[jzucker]

Adam Rogers and Sheryl Bailey primarily use alternate picking

[Patrick2]

I totally agree with Jack on this. Alternate picking IS jazz guitar. (although I really can't stand a totally 100% usage of it in any genre) Alternate picking was *almost* literally hammered into my head and my fingers by my first jazz guitar teacher. He adamently refused to go any further with my technique studies until I could play 8 specific rhythmic variations of Major diatonic scales starting in the third position on the fret board with the root note falling under each of my fingers on the 6th and the 5th strings and without leaving the third position. That's 8 rhythmic variations of the G diatonic with 1st 6th fingering! Then 8 rhythmic variations of Ab diatonic with the 2nd 6th fingering . . etc. If the picking wasn't very strict aternate strokes, I almost expected him to whack me across my knuckles with a heavy ruler like some sort of an old catholic nun might have done back in grade school.

However, also like Jack pointed out . . there are definitely times when I'll choose to use economy picking . . which for all intents and purposes is basically a combination of alternate and sweep picking . . as I see it.

Unfortunately, because I noodle far more than I practice and actually study . . I've gravitated back to employing a blues/rock technique of mixing alternate, sweep, economy, slurs, hammer-ons, pull-offs . . etc. As a result, my right hand technique for straight ahead alternate picking has deteriorated considerably. I'm working on correcting that now. But, it ain't an easy habit to break.

[inwalkedbud]

I'd agree w Jack on this one actually. We always see the primary function of picking as playing fast. The primary function of picking, however, is articulation. If you can articulate w a swing feel on a ballad or down tempo swIng while economy picking then more power to you ... if you can play a triplet bird line w arpeggios and turns alternate picking then cool.

For some counterpoint... I pick however the line dictates (alternating more often than not) but make my focus slurring into downbeats wherever possible.

[coolvinny]

Turning this into an economy vs. alternate picking debate is silly I think. Plenty of great players use both. Neither one is better than the other...they each have pros and cons. It depends on what you're into and what you feel more comfortable with (so at some point, one has to woodshed both I think). Me, I'm mostly into bebop so economy works better for me.

[jzucker]

Turning this into an economy vs. alternate picking debate is silly I think. Plenty of great players use both. Neither one is better than the other...they each have pros and cons. It depends on what you're into and what you feel more comfortable with (so at some point, one has to woodshed both I think). Me, I'm mostly into bebop so economy works better for me.

no it's not silly and as someone who has 2 books out on sheets of sound I feel expressly qualified to pass judgement. It's pretty clear that for bop and digging into a groove, alternate picking is the better choice. And , as a *BASE* technique, alternate picking *MUST* be mastered. To switch your picking to economy makes no sense unless you are a shredder.

[coolvinny]

You can consider yourself qualified to pass judgment, but that doesn't mean we have to. It's just your opinion...you're one pro with one opinion, other pros have other opinions. Your opinion as a pro means something, but it doesn't mean your word is the last word especially when other pros hold different views. At one time Jimmy Bruno advocated economy picking, so yes I think it's silly to say that one is better than the other when a guy like Jimmy at one point held the opposing view than the one you currently hold. I also know a young local pro who, with all due respect...I believe to be a more advanced player than you Jack and he economy picks. Great players use both techniques.


edit: This thread from another place is a good indication that reasonable people (great players included) can hold different opinions on alternate vs. economy: http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch.../msg00104.html

I think it speaks for itself, so I'll step out of this discussion permanently. If someone wants to believe that one is clearly better than the other, that's their choice. The whole thing has been worked over on the internet probably hundreds of times.

[Patrick2]

JZ and coolvinny . . you guys are more in agreement with each other than you are in disagreement.

JZ isn't saying that alternate picking should be the only method . . I hear him saying it should be the base which your right hand technique relies upon . . . while interjecting economy, sweep, hybrid etc., where and when you desire and feel appropriate.

Coolvinny isn't saying that alternate should be disregarded in favor of economy. I hear him saying that he believes it's best to use what ever one feels is best for the lines the're playing and the mood/feel of the lines they wish to create or cover.

Go back (if you will) to post #15 by inwalkedbud. That's pretty much perfect . . . IMO.

Regarding what Bruno says, does and promotes . . . let us not forget that he's hustling inter net lessons. He's astute enough to recognize that the vast majority of his students, or prospective students aren't the very advanced pro level players. As such, he wants to promote the quickest results possible for his students . . . so that they will spread, by word of mouth . . "hey man, I've really advanced quickly with the Bruno courses". Example; his six fingering (or is it five? lolol). How many guys at his, or JZ's or Reg's level could survive with only 5 or 6 fingerings. The success of his inter net lessons depends upon getting the intermediate level players up and cooking in as short a period of time as possible.

As a listener of jazz guitar, I can't really get to excited by players who don't do anything other than alternate picking. Nor can I get too excited by players who haven't mastered the technique of groove and fluidity in alternate picking.

If we're going to get sideways with each other . . let's at least try to limit it to things we truly disagee upon.

[jzucker]

You can consider yourself qualified to pass judgment, but that doesn't mean we have to.

Of course you don't have to but then how about you demonstrate playing donna lee or playing over giant steps locked into the time using economy picking? In my neighborhood, you demonstrate something before disagreeing and arguing with someone about something.

[jzucker]

I also know a young local pro who, with all due respect...I believe to be a more advanced player than you Jack and he economy picks. Great players use both techniques.

Besides, I know a young local pro who is better and more advanced than your local young pro and he alternate picks.

So take that! bwahahaha

[henryrobinett]

Economy picking never made much sense to me. For me picking should be dictated by phrasing and which part of the beat you're playing, not whether you're going to a new string or not. Musical choices.

[jzucker]

and p.p.s.

There's a difference between someone who uses economy picking and someone who exclusively uses economy picking. Post a clip of your young pro playing some bop lines. I'm genuinely interested.

[inwalkedbud]

Jack... you're a good guitarist but that escalated from what seemed to be a pretty innocuous "live and let live" statement to a bit of a sh*t show very quickly. I didn't really read anyone challenge your qualifications until you posted a slightly defensive response that included references to your publications and lots of caps.

I'm with Patrick. I think literally everyone on this entire thread has agreed on different strokes for different folks. Seems like we should save the arguing for - you know - an argument.

[GuyBoden]

I've predominantly been an economy picker since a teenager, that's 35+ years of playing, all I'll say is that maybe Alt picking has more precise timing, but each to one's own style.

As an economy picker, I had to spend a lot of time trying to change my picking "down-down" and "up-up" type strokes to have more precise time, I probably failed, but I enjoyed the journey.