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Reg> I might be misinterpretting your post above, but I seem to be hearing you say is that as long as you can play the required/written/desired note, it makes no difference how you get to it . . and that if that could be through alt-picking, economy, sweep, slurs . . . etc., etc., . . then it shouldn't matter. But, how much of what ever method we consciously choose to employ when picking . . is actually driven by what we wish to articulate in a chosen or required note or a line of notes?
Not being a great sight reader, if I'm looking to cover a written line, I first find the notes with as effecient a fingering as possible. Then I sometimes (often times) change the fingering and/or the picking method, attack and possibly even the pick orientation to achieve a different dynamic.
Similarly, if I'm improvising over something . . there might be times where I'll use various picking techniques to suit what I'm *attempting* to play.
I've always had two trains of though about this. One train of thought tells me that I might want to get a little more true to alternate picking . . as that seems to be the most prevalant method in bop playing (not withstanding the sometimes very brief incorporation of economy picking). I almost feel guilty that I too often play jazz lines the same way I played blues or rock lines . . just with a better jazz tone and feel.
But, then I kinda lose the guilt and revert to what you've stated in your post above. If that's the way I choose to play my notes and lines . . then it's not incorrect or out of character as a jazz guitar voice . . . it's just my own particular chosen jazz guitar voice.
As you can tell, I'm still just a tad conflicted about that.
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05-29-2014 10:26 AM
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I'm still stuck at upstrokes at 300 bpm. LOL. Quarter notes I can do easy. But 8th notes at 300? Fergetaboutit. LOL.
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I like the way this guy plays and I think he knows something about picking I'd like to learn.
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Very cool playing. I especially love the drunk who keeps yelling all the way through. And he's yelling regardless what's happening in the music.
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Yeah, Henry, that's one reason I don't like to go where people are drinking! Too many bad memories. I like JC's playing. His new record is all Blakey-band stuff (I think it's called "Blakey Grease"). He can really get around on that guitar. Obsessed with Benson as a kid and learned a way to get that "effortless right hand" thing going. Great sense of groove, which I like. (I started listening to Jimmy Smith because of the guitar players he used but it didn't take me too long to realize he was a monster in his own right.)
Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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Yeah, on JC's Benson tutorial vid, he plays Cherokee at a tempo which would be around 280-300 - solid. He's made a real science about the Benson tech, I've really gained a lot from his teaching. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Reg, I've always dug your right hand chops - to me it looks like your picking style has similarities to Benson picking, particularly the way you angle the pick. Also, I'll have to look at your vids in more detail, but it seems like you cup your hand a bit too (again, sort of like GB). You seem to get a really positive attack on the string, which I'd say helps contribute to your really great time feel (among other factors of course).
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Yes... I believe if your able to play lines etc... At the tempos of jazz... Not pop standards And articulate how notated or how someone else notated. Basically be able to articulate as is common practice jazz lines etc... Who cares how you pick. If it works... What's wrong.
Personally I needed an organized approach which is based on alt. picking... But that's me.
From watching guitarist for years... Most would greatly benefit from also employing an organized picking approach based on alt. picking.
There has been a style around for a while that is based on just getting the notes out and the articulations are an after thought.... Or a product of the blend of picking approaches. Not bad or good. I just personally don't like it. I understand rhythmic displacement which can also include a type of articulation displacement... Many young guitarist become very accomplished at style. They're not groove players and when their technique is put under pressure... Say reading lines with a horn section with articulations or being able to follow the lead players phrasing... Generally it doesn't work with out rehearsal etc...
But like I first said.... If your picking covers all you want your picking technique to cover. Your set.
Henry... Yea I don't remember the thread... Might have been about swing articulation... I was explains that there are beginner phrasing techniques..... Accenting on the weak side that isn't really swing... It's technique to get one started in the direction of learning how to swing..... Anyway something about slurring as compared to attacks at fast tempos. Anyway... Yes I played lines only attacking up beats with up strokes at 300, it really wasn't that difficult. But verbally sounded cool. I mean 8th notes at 300 is basically playing at 150. Now 16th notes....
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Oh well then, I'm tracking with you. That's easy. I did that. I put the BPM at 150. Yeah, 16th notes. Damn. I work on this stuff, but there's no way, at this point, I can do that!
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It's a given also that if you play at 300bpm you want a clean sound, correct? No muffled or dead notes.
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Reg, I know you've said a few times 'who cares'/whatever works, etc. in terms of technique/pick grip/mechanics etc., but given that it's an area the majority of jazz guitarists struggle with, I like the idea of pulling apart the techniques of all the guys who have great right hand chops and seeing how they do it. So... cause you've got great natural picking chops - could you make a quick vid sometime showing exactly how you grip the pick, with different hand angles? That would be cool. Would anyone else here dig that? Originally Posted by Reg
Re: articulation - that's a pretty broad term. Do you mean the ability to accent and place dynamics at will anywhere in the line, and how that effects the groove? I'm assuming that's what you mean.Last edited by 3625; 05-29-2014 at 11:18 PM.
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3625, thanks... and sure I'll put up something. Yes with regards to articulation...
edh... sure, clean, muffled... whatever your trying to play... as compared to what you play as a result of your picking technique.
No right or wrong... we're talkin academics...technical BS to practice and be aware of... so when you play, you might be able to get more out of your performances.Last edited by Reg; 05-30-2014 at 09:58 AM.
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Yes, most definitely would be interested in that. There was a long period of time I took working on technical exercises, such as scales and classical stuff like Kruetzer and Bach with a pick. It gave me the ability to play a lot of intricate things, but the right hand always hung me back from gaining any real speed. I took a significant amount of time also to just work on developing the right hand by itself....like sitting and trying to gain speed on one note only to build a tremelo. But I always hit a wall with the right hand. These days when playing (have a lot of neck/back issues, so my playing time has been limited severely, which is how come I have more time to write on this forum lol), I do a lot of adaptions to get the music out. Frankly, I wish I would have had the good sense to do this long ago. Originally Posted by 3625
But still, this is the biggest area of technique that has just left me clueless.....just getting some speed in the right hand.
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Why not broaden this discussion? Why so much focus on just a single striking/sound-producing device, the plectrum? Why acrimony?
Many guitarists use no picks. . . Wes, for example, as you've mentioned. Revolutionary chops with notes produced by human flesh!
What about jazz fingerstylists? Joe Pass played often, and fast, with his fingers and no pick. Kevin Eubanks has described using a hybrid Wes technique whereby he uses his thumb and middle finger, alternating and sweeping. He has a wonderfully precise and percussive tone. Check out his "Relaxin at Camarillo," single notes and chord melody.
What about classical or flamenco guitarists using nails with PIMA techniques? There is an endless list of guitarists with blazing fast arpeggios and single lines (insert your fave here).
How about examples from our electric bass guitar brethren? Some use a single finger (Jamerson) or thumb to produce notes. Jaco Pastorius used alternating fingers. He had plenty of speed and articulation on an instrument with wide string spacing and fat strings. How about blazing French bassist Dominic DiPiazza (John McLaughlin: Que Alegria)? He uses a classical guitar technique on five- or six-string electric bass guitar. How about Gary Willis (Tribal Tech), who uses a floating thumb striking/muting technique in conjunction with alternating thumb and fingers assigned to string sets. How about Brian Bromberg, who blazes on electric bass or upright, fingerstyle?
The point is that there are so many successful techniques to use in producing beautiful and amazing sound and music. I appreciate the voice of a Jack Zucker, who painstakingly documented a certain method, and shared it. I also appreciate other musicians that share their methods, including you and your examples.
The main challenge in all of this is to find technique(s) that serves our unique physiology, sound requirements, and music requirements. If one type of picking fills this role, great! If a hybrid of the myriad is chosen, existing or invented and unique to you, then great!
Finally, there is this:
Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
Last edited by Apostro Phe('); 06-21-2014 at 09:21 AM.
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Perhaps because the thread is titled and about ECONOMY picking? Just a thought. But I understand and agree with your sentiments.
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Economy of motion is the hallmark of efficiency for many athletic/movement endeavors. Economy picking implies economy of motion/efficiency for picking, which has many sources of sound production. So, if the thread is only about economy of plectrum picking, hence economy plectrum picking, it is not stated in the title.
: )
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The thread title is economy picking. That's not in reference to other kinds if picking. Economy picking. I don't do it or subscribe to it myself for reasons I outlined in the thread. But it is a hallmark of picking efficiency yes.
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Gary Willis has one of the most interesting economy picking styles I've ever seen. He uses his thumb and fingers, with no pick. He has dexterity, accuracy, efficiency, excellent and consistent tone, ample speed, and economy of motion in his fingers and overall right hand movement.
His note-producing and muting discipline produce great result for him, and many study his ideas. To me this thread is about exploring ideas, and pros and cons. That's the fun in learning about the single picking modes, hybrids and variations. It may help one that is searching for usable technique to find solution that fits.
Of course, if we can only have one way, with one rigid definition, then economy of logic must be involved. Economy of logic may or may not be efficient. Results of economy logic may or may not be apparent to the user, but is likely very apparent to the witness of such logic.
Fortunately, economy picking can mean something different to everyone here, as it likely does, as exhibited by several variations/examples of explanations in this thread. I appreciate these differences.
And to Mr. Robinett: Your credentials, talent, and music are very fine. I am quite happy to learn about you through your provided links. Cheers!Last edited by Apostro Phe('); 06-21-2014 at 04:13 PM.
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I see where you're coming from, but in general, economy picking is referenced as a plectrum specific term by most guitarists.
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Exactly.
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I've always played using economy picking.
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Jawa Babeta, another flash. I knew quite a few people who owned this thing.
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