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I had a lesson with Lage Lund and he stated that alternate picking is good as a basis, but other than that it should be the shape of the line you're playing and the phrasing you want that should determine the picking pattern. Much along henryrobinett's statement. However I think it's easy to make an accent with an upstroke. Is this just me?
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05-24-2014 06:04 AM
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That would make you play 3 consecutive downstrokes, wouldn't it?
Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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Speaking of down strokes, didn't Barney Kessel say that Charlie Christian used down strokes about 80 % of the time?
(I do not say this to take issue with those who stress alternate picking. It's how I was taught and what I've pretty much always done. I might do other things for certain licks but alternate picking is my foundation.)
Huh, I actually Googled that and found an interview with BK in which he is talking about Charlie Christian and the figure given is 95 % down strokes.
Here is that portion of the interview (with t a link to the whole thing below)
From observation, what can you say about Charlie Christian’s technique?
Well, when I think of technique, really I think of control. I don’t think of technique in the same way that a lot of people do, so I don’t really think of technique as being only speed or dexterity. I think that if you have certain things that you want to say and you’re able to say them, then you have the technique that you need. The only time you would be at a loss, technically, is if you needed to do something and couldn’t do it. You know what it’s like, really? It’s like how rich are you or how poor are you that when you want a meal or to buy a new suit or buy a new car or take a trip to Europe, that there’s always enough money to do it – not a lot more than that and not a lot less. So are you really poor or wealthy? It’s kind of that way with technique: If you can do what you need to do, then you’ve got enough technique. He certainly did not have the kind of technique that people have today, or even a lot of people during that day, because he didn’t concentrate on that. It wasn’t a big thing. Another thing is he played almost exclusively – probably 95% – downstrokes.
Did he use a pick?
Yes.
How did he hold it?
He held it in his thumb and first finger of his right hand, very tightly, and he rested his second, third, and fourth fingers very firmly – I mean, not in a relaxed way, but very, very, very tensely – on the pickguard. They were anchored there. It wasn’t like a light anchor. It’s not like some guitar players you see, where they’re kind of rubbing maybe just their little pinkie finger against it. Have you seen guys do that?
Sure.
Yeah. He had them firmly entrenched on that pickguard, almost like there was no break in the finger joint. It was like a straight, solid, long finger that was right on there, and he played with the first finger and the thumb holding the pick. And the pick was a very stiff pick, and it was a triangular pick.
A big triangle or a smaller one?
A big one.
Did he use all of the fingers of his left hand?
He almost exclusively did not use the fourth finger. Almost not ever – almost.
Barney Kessel On Meeting and Jamming With Charlie Christian | Jas Obrecht Music Archive
As a further aside here: Herb Ellis mentions in a lesson that it is good to play a line with all down strokes, then all up strokes, and then alternating. He didn't mean every line one plays but as a way of developing pick technique. I've found that to be a good exercise. Sometimes I use mostly down strokes on melodies.
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I've got to admit that I always find these discussions weird because everyone gets on this kick about how alternate picking should be the default approach for jazz guitar.
I get that there are big benefits to something like the system Leavitt teaches for picking up material off of sheet music quickly, and for being able to cover different articulations without prior rehearsal. Reg gave me a lot of advice to be about this on a thread, and I can totally see his point.
But, on the other hand, to me the giants of jazz guitar do not display anything like a tendency for a basic system of alt picking. When I list my favorite all-time players, only one or two of them are alt-pickers. Django, Christian, Raney, Farlow, Wes, Pass, Benson...none of these guys alt-picked.
In fact, the only players I can think of who are alt-picking kings in the jazz world who still play mostly straight ahead are Billy Bean and Pat Martino. I like both of those guys a lot, but Martino has a really idiosyncratic sound that, to my ears, is nothing like the standard system of jazz articulation that you'd be after if you want to imitate Lester Young or Parker.
To play devil's advocate, I'm not sure why we're so excited about a system that none of the greats actually used.
That being said, I keep working on alt-picking, but I'm also trying to spend some time working on the gypsy system, since that's, to my ears, where the authentic jazz articulation that Wes and Benson get comes from.
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To be clear, I'm not now nor have I ever been interested in what the greats used. That's me. I'm interested in what makes the most sense and sounds best to me. Then I'm interested in passing on what I've found to others who may be interested. Not to be a butthead or strange or egotistical, but I never listen to those guys, for the most part. There is an articulation in jazz I don't hear from a lot of the "greats." There is a certain phraseology in the music of jazz where, regardless of the instrument, is present. I often don't hear this in guitar players, even with some of the greats.
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Late to the party...my take, not as a master, just as a guy who's played guitar for 23 years.
Alternate picking as a "base model" makes sense. I also think there's situations where economy makes most sense...particularly when I've copped licks from instruments other than the guitar...
It's funny though. I hear so many guitar players say they "want to sound like a horn" and then they pick every note. I was lisyening to Jimmy Raney this morning, and I was kept making mental notes of the slurs, small sweeps, legatos...sounded great. Then I thought about Wes too...
Which is not to say I wouldn't like to be able to pull off some of George Benson's picked stuff. So I keep practicing...
My point, if there us one, is getting too married to a style, or in the case of the OP, throwing the baby out with the bathwater, seems counterproductive to me.
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Benson didn't alt-pick?? Shirly you jest.?.? ("Don't call me Shirly!") Originally Posted by ecj
Here again, a misinterpretation of the content of most of the comments in this thread. I really don't think that anyone here said that anyone in the world of jazz guitar does or should play 100% alternate picking with absolutely no deviation from it . . . ever. Heck, man . . even the guys who over use alt-picking to what is ion my opinion a distastefull extreme . . Martino and McGlaughlin deviated from it . . although.
Benson?? He's a fantastic alt-picking player . . . and he uses it where and when he wants to . . and very tastefully. Click on this link and fast forward to 3:15 in.
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I don't think this is a fact. I've chatted about it with the guy who wrote his PhD thesis on Bean and saw him play in person (admittedly decades past his prime). He said Bean did not strictly alt pick and that in Bean's words he "never really thought much about picking". Originally Posted by ecj
So...you could be right...but I don't think it's generally accepted that he alt picked.
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Interesting - thanks for that tidbit. Originally Posted by coolvinny
Patrick - Benson is on record in tons of interviews saying he can't "skip strings" and that he had to set up his licks more like the gypsy guys. Rodney Jones is on record talking about it, too. After Jody Fisher interviewed him, he talked about his "gypsy-like" approach somewhere.
I think his approach is more grounded in Django and Wes than someone like Martino in terms of the picking (not the content, licks, necessarily).
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Still not sure where the disconnect is.?.? The video I posted is one of very many where GB is using alternate picking technique for several measure straight. George Benson can NOT be George Benson without the alternate picking. But, as mentioned several times in this thread . . it's not exclusively alternating. Would you not call the runs from 3:15 through 3:25 to be almost exclusively alternate picking? Then, he goes off onto other picking techniques. There's a clip of him on you tube blowing over Oleo at hyper bpm. It's probably some 98% alternate picking. In my opinion, what makes GB who he is on the guitar, is his ability to utilize it all. Originally Posted by ecj
My opinon remains firm that alternate picking is a huge fundamental component of jazz guitar picking technique . . . but, definitely not the main component of it. I would also take a different position than those who have said that you can't be in the pocket or find a groove unless you use alternate picking. As for articulating a specific accent, tone, attack . . why couldn't that be accomplished with economy picking? I believe it can. As I see it, the only thing you can't do unless you are using alternate picking . . . is sound like you are using alternate picking. :-)
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Until that thread I never was really asking myself the question if I was using alternate picking, economy or repetitive downtrokes or upstrokes.
I realize I spontaneously do most of the time a lot of alternate picking but also do economy when bursting fast solo line; the only thing I am not much into is legato; I like to pick every single note even if it might slow me down sometime...
I was watching the video of Tal Farlow with Jody Fischer where TF was doing his upstroke chords melody and JF commenting on that...not usual but effective.
I also watch this very morning a video of Barney Kessel, Tal Farlow and Charlie Bird where Barney was downstriking a lot in his solo...
I guess it is up to every player to use whatever technique get them where they want to go
Same applies to the way one is holding the pick, angle, where he positions his thumb...a musical style evolves and benefit from various approachesLast edited by vinlander; 05-24-2014 at 04:15 PM. Reason: precisions
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I'm not sure we have the same definition of alternate picking. Do you think Joe Pass alternate picks? How about Bireli Lagrene? Originally Posted by Patrick2
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I can only take so much.
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Well, sonofab*tch, if George doesn't use economy and alternate picking here! Whoever said you could use both?
Oh, that's right. Nobody ever said you had to be married to a style.Last edited by MarkRhodes; 05-24-2014 at 07:18 PM. Reason: language
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Other than maybe Martino - who also has some flashy sweep picking licks - I've never seen any straight-ahead jazz guitar player go through an entire solo without incorporating a lot of other techniques.
I'm questioning whether or not alt-picking is even really the base for most of the great players of the past. Benson is definitely not picking in the way we traditionally understand alt-picking. He uses rest downstrokes, changes strings with a downstroke, etc.
He also does a lot of other totally crazy stuff.
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I think we just might have different definitions of alternate picking, as you suggest. If you didn't find the GB clip I posted, with reference to 3:15 to 3:25 to be alternate picking . . then I am indeed confused! Originally Posted by ecj
Joe Pass . . alternate picking?? Joe played mostly fingerstyle. Joe was a master of masters. But, even he wasn't good enough to pull off alternate picking fingerstyle. But, do think back to the video posted of Donna Lee with Clark Terry. Was Joe not blowing alternate picking along with economy and sweeps? Here it is . . que it up to 2:30. Some great close ups of his alternate picking technique . . . being incorporated with economy and sweeps.
What am I missing here?? I'm seriously confused.
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Exactly what I'm saying. Goerge goes off on a serious tangent of alternat picking in the time fram I referenced . . 3:15 to 3:25. Before that and after it . . he's using everything under the sun to express his lines. Can anyone actually tell me that he wasn't alternate picking at all in this improv? Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Last edited by Patrick2; 05-25-2014 at 10:39 AM.
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Please . . . do not apologize for bluntness. Without it, you and I would have a hard time communicating. But, please don't post something like "100% nonesense" . . without further explanation as to what you find to be nonsensical. That kinda makes your post sound . . . nonsensical. :-) Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
Last edited by Patrick2; 05-24-2014 at 08:00 PM.
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I really don't think that anyone ever said that George Benson doesn't use economy picking. Same with Bruno, Bailey, Rogers (who ever the hell Rogers is), Dan Wilson (who ever the hell Dan Wilson is), Grant Green . . (I do know him . . lolol). By the way . . gypsy is spelled with a "y" . . not an "i". To do otherwise would be . . . "100% nonsense". Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
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So then, help me understand where we disagree on that???? Originally Posted by ecj
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My2c: Patrick - how you define whether someone is alternate or economy picking is all about what pick direction they use when crossing strings. Therefore, when someone is doing strict economy picking while playing bop 8th notes, probably 85% or more is up, down, up, down, except when crossing strings: down, down, or up, up. So unless you're really looking close up, it can be hard to tell initially whether a guitarist is using strict alternate, or economy - especially if they're really shredding - such as GB.
Like ECJ is pointing out - most of the classic players didn't do strictly alt. or economy, but developed their own system. I'm starting to think that strict alt. or economy are relatively modern concepts anyway. It's highly likely that most of the classic players did consecutive downstrokes when ascending - Django, Tal, Pass, Barney, CC, Benson (I think), but when descending that's when the variation comes in.
The consecutive downstrokes when changing strings is an evolutionary hangover from pre-electric playing - rest strokes - to get the most volume. There's a clear link from the earlier gen. like Django & Eddie Lang then to CC then to Pass & Barney where you can see remnants of that older 30's style of picking.
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just read your post, after posting mine directly below. Seems there's some confusion about how to define economy in terms of descending. I tend to define it as 'up, up' when changing strings. Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
Given that our definition of economy is different - I don't think calling Patrick's comment 'absurd' is appropriate - it's just semantics after all. No need to reignite the drama factor...
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Thank you . . . but, I'm well aware of the definitions of both economy and alternate picking. And, the only thing that's absurd here, is your interpretation of ANY of my posts to mean that I was saying that Benson's technique relies on alternate picking. What I and others have said, was that he does use it . . as exampled in the time frame of the clip I posted. Woud you try to tell me that what I referenced was NOT alternate picking? A guitar player can use alternate picking on as few as 10 notes, across 2 or 3 strings . . can they not? Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
I'll state once again . . . . we're not in disagreement here. We're ALL pretty much saying the same thing. Why are some interpreting the terminology of alternate picking to mean that anyone who uses it never deviates from it?
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Seems like the confusion is over alternate vs. strict alternate
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Alternate picking or alterNitPicking ?
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