Economy picking

[jzucker]

Jack... you're a good guitarist but that escalated from what seemed to be a pretty innocuous "live and let live" statement to a bit of a shit show very quickly. I didn't really read anyone challenge your qualifications until you posted a slightly defensive response that included references to your publications and lots of caps.

I'm with Patrick. I think literally everyone on this entire thread has agreed on different strokes for different folks. Seems like we should save the arguing for - you know - an argument.

yeah, what the !@#$ do I know about picking? I only studied with Pass, Martino and Sandole, lol.

[inwalkedbud]

Sigh. Nevermind.

[GuyBoden]

IMHO, alt picking has more precise timing than economy picking, I alluded to this in my post 10#, but I didn't want to upset my fellow economy pickers. I think it's because Alt picking has one movement per note accent, where economy can have one movement for multiple note accents.

[henryrobinett]

Manners, manners! Everyone has the right their own opinions without being slammed for them. There is never one way. No one has a monopoly on the truth or the right way for anything. The more we can share different opinions the better we can have reasoned discourses.

[inwalkedbud]

Manners, manners! Everyone has the right their own opinions without being slammed for them. There is never one way. No one has a monopoly on the truth or the right way for anything. The more we can share different opinions the better we can have reasoned discourses.

Amen

[inwalkedbud]

Economy picking never made much sense to me. For me picking should be dictated by phrasing and which part of the beat you're playing, not whether you're going to a new string or not. Musical choices.

Also amen.

[coolvinny]

Jack I see no reason to respond to anything you wrote, so let's just "Ignore" eachother. With you, everything turns into an Internet Video Cage Match proposal.

Edit: I missed the third response to what I wrote ("p.p.s...."re: economy vs. strict economy picking), which I am happy to address. I don't know if there is a scientific definition to "economy picking". I think of economy picking as meaning a technique which uses alternate strokes on one string but that allows (though does not necessarily require) the 'most direct approach' to the next note if it's on another string. That probably means "non-strict economy picking" as opposed to strict economy picking (but which still differs from strict alternate picking).

I'm mentally running through a particular Bird head I've been shedding (Sippin At Bells) and in my mind I don't use "strict" economy picking...especially as I mentally crank up the tempo. BUT I just grabbed my guitar to play the head and I surprised myself as I actually did use strict economy picking on it...but remember that this is a head I've practiced a lot, so maybe I've trained myself to use strict economy picking on it more rigorously than I would if I was improvising a line. Maybe it's kind of like that Jimmy Raney video...you practice and practice and practice and eventually you let your subconscious take over: (sorry, I tried to embed the video but I don't seem to be able to do it).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...7rapnXZbE#t=31

[Patrick2]

[QUOTE=inwalkedbud;427700]

Amen

Hey, man . . . wasn't that a Curtis Mayfield song?

[3625]

I tend to avoid entering into threads that have descended into a sh*tfight, but since JZ has quit the forum perhaps this topic could get put back on track cause it's a good one.

I've been doing strict economy for years, but in the last 18 months have been experimenting with different types of picking - was trying Gypsy picking for a while, and for the last 6 months have exclusively been doing Benson picking on archtop.

Patrick - I disagree alt. picking 'is jazz guitar' because traditionally there's a strong case to be made for jazz guitarists sweeping when ascending - consecutive downstrokes when changing strings. That's what gypsy guitarists do, but also american swing guitarists plus bop guys like Joe Pass and Tal Farlow. Whereas descending it's more a case of jazz players preferring alt. picking instead of consecutive upsweeps when changing strings.

I think the attitude of 'you must strictly alternate everything' might have surfaced in the late 60's/70's when you had all these these players with mega alt. chops emerge like Martino, Di Meola, McLaughlin etc.

As for the bop era guys, I think it was varied, maybe Johnny Smith and Howard Roberts strictly alt. picked (?) but as mentioned players like Tal and Pass, plus Chuck Wayne etc. had different approaches.

Can anyone confirm if Benson does consective downstrokes when ascending, but alt. picks when descending? I thought I read that somewhere, but am not sure...

[henryrobinett]

I studied with Howard Roberts a fair amount. He had a circular picking technique he didn't wish on anybody. I believe he alternate picked.

As I said I don't understand economy picking. Strong beats and accents should be DOWNSTROKES. That's just the way it works in my mind with musical phrasing. I just don't understand phrasing with accentuating a strong beat or accent with an upstroke. To my ears it just sounds wrong. To me it doesn't groove and generally does not swing. In this I agree with whats-his-name. But that's not written in stone. That's just the way I operate and the way I think. Obviously there are great players who think and operate differently. So I just say I don't understand it.

[inwalkedbud]

I really wonder if there are a lot of players out there that really think about that. I think most guys have a sound in their head and go after it. If you think about a lot of guys with very distinctively "legato" or "articulate" sounds then the picking style isn't the only thing that reflects that. For example Kurt is someone I think of as being very legato. Everything about his sound reflects that to me... economy picking, lots of slurs, reverb and delay that make his tone very cavernous and far away sounding. The whole thing sounds like he's trying to float out above the band - Benson or Sheryl Bailey are two people I think of as being very percussive and articulate. They both play with organ trio a lot which has a very R&B, soul kind of vibe... very straight-ahead with, brighter overall tones and fewer effects.

I think most of these guys just had a sound in there heads and followed it where it took them. Picking technique is an aspect of "the sound"

[inwalkedbud]

I tend to avoid entering into threads that have descended into a sh*tfight, but since JZ has quit the forum perhaps this topic could get put back on track cause it's a good one.

If there's something to say and you can say it in a positive way... ain't no thang

[3625]

I studied with Howard Roberts an fair amount. He had a circular picking technique he didn't wish on anybody. I believe he alternate picked.

As I said I don't understand economy picking. Strong beats and accents should be DOWNSTROKES. That's just the way it works in my mind with musical phrasing. I just don't understand phrasing with accentuating a strong beat or accent with an upstroke. To my ears it just sounds wrong. To me it doesn't groove and generally does not swing. In this I agree with whats-his-name. But that's not written in stone. That's just the way I operate and the way I think. Obviously there are great players who think and operate differently. So I just say I don't understand it.

Thanks for confirming HR, HR.

I pretty much agree about the downstroke thing being ideal for playing in the pocket. You can make consecutive upstrokes really pop the note out, by doing upwards reststrokes, but in terms of bio-mechanics and what-not, it's a bit unnatural to be doing it long term, at least in my experience. Whereas doing consecutive downstrokes when ascending seems to work well because you're allied with gravity.

Economy picking comes in handy for certain fast phrases like 16th's, though. ATM I'm kinda between two worlds where I mostly alt. pick when descending, but for really fast licks tend to revert to upsweeps - but that's a work in progress like anything. A lot of it is to do with fingering, and the number of notes per string - the gypsy guys alter their fingering to make their strict downstrokes method work better by keeping 3 note per string phrases to a minimum for example.

[coolvinny]

I think most of the players in this thread play better than I do (I've only been playing guitar seriously for about 6 years, jazz for 4 years, jazz seriously for coming up on 3 years, and I have a busy day job), so take this all for what it's worth.

I don't think my upstrokes are weaker than my downstrokes. Sometimes I like to start a line by picking up. Maybe I am just gifted in my short-twitch upstroke muscles, but honestly once I buckled down and worked on my picking, I found out pretty quickly that I have no real preference between up vs. down-strokes for single note picking. Maybe on an acoustic instrument it would be different, but through an amp I don't need to generate a lot of force to make a note speak with authority...if I accent a note in my mind, my pick automatically accents it, regardless of pick direction.

Billy Bean is the guitarist I hold in the highest regard. He was not an alternate picker to my knowledge...but man was he ever in the pocket! His time is outstanding...so obviously it can be done with economy picking, or some hybrid thereof.

Henry - if we just look at 2 beats of eighth notes...ba-da-ba-DA. If just played on a single string and starting on a downstroke, that last note DA would be an upstroke, wouldn't it? Do you see a problem in accenting that with an upstroke? To me, it seems very natural to accent it with an upstroke.

[henryrobinett]

Yeah. I have always practiced consecutive upstrokes and consecutive down. And I play them as well. And I do some legato playing too. The hammer ons and slurs, pull offs, don't really reflect the picking though. That's all a part of the same. You can do slurs and still PICK on the strong beat or accent. I think it's all in control and articulation.

What I DON'T HEAR in these discussions is phrasing and articulations. It's one of the things that drive horn players crazy about guitar players. They're all about articulations. They know HOW to phrase a note; how play it long, short, hard, soft and they write the articulations down. Most guitar players are happy just to be able read the notes. So I'm saying the debate about economy verse alternate, slurs would be more or less handled when we talk about articulations.

[inwalkedbud]

What I DON'T HEAR in these discussions is phrasing and articulations. It's one of the things that drive horn players crazy about guitar players.

hey now hey now... I brought that up... granted it was earlier and is probably lying in the rubble of the earlier half of this thread.

But yea... guitar players are forever concerned with how to play faster when really it's a matter of how you should be articulating. You'd never hear a trumpet player saying "yea I ONLY triple tongue" ... or "yea I ONLY play with a harmon mute" ... they're all techniques and should all be mastered (or honed). Once you have the technical facility to pursue the sound that's in your head then I suppose the ratio of one pick stroke versus the other will fall into place.

[henryrobinett]

Henry - if we just look at 2 beats of eighth notes...ba-da-ba-DA. If just played on a single string and starting on a downstroke, that last note DA would be an upstroke, wouldn't it? Do you see a problem in accenting that with an upstroke? To me, it seems very natural to accent it with an upstroke.

Well there's no absolutes. I either play it hard with an upstroke or most likely hit the last 8th with a downstroke. In general I don't like the sound of accenting that last 8th as an upstroke. Downs and ups have distinct sounds.

[Patrick2]

I tend to avoid entering into threads that have descended into a sh*tfight, but since JZ has quit the forum perhaps this topic could get put back on track cause it's a good one.

I've been doing strict economy for years, but in the last 18 months have been experimenting with different types of picking - was trying Gypsy picking for a while, and for the last 6 months have exclusively been doing Benson picking on archtop.

Patrick - I disagree alt. picking 'is jazz guitar' because traditionally there's a strong case to be made for jazz guitarists sweeping when ascending - consecutive downstrokes when changing strings. That's what gypsy guitarists do, but also american swing guitarists plus bop guys like Joe Pass and Tal Farlow. Whereas descending it's more a case of jazz players preferring alt. picking instead of consecutive upsweeps when changing strings.

I think the attitude of 'you must strictly alternate everything' might have surfaced in the late 60's/70's when you had all these these players with mega alt. chops emerge like Martino, Di Meola, McLaughlin etc.

As for the bop era guys, I think it was varied, maybe Johnny Smith and Howard Roberts strictly alt. picked (?) but as mentioned players like Tal and Pass, plus Chuck Wayne etc. had different approaches.

Can anyone confirm if Benson does consective downstrokes when ascending, but alt. picks when descending? I thought I read that somewhere, but am not sure...

When I say that alternate picking IS jazz guitar, I'm not saying that it's exclusively alternate picking. That's pretty much where the sh*t storm started in this thread . . . with the misconception that anyone was saying you've got to alternate pick everything. I really don't think that anyone ever said that, including Zucker. I believe the message was, that we all need to first gain proficiency in alternate picking . . . then branch out and decide when to use it . . . or not use it at our own discretion. Most of what we hear in jazz guitar improvs . . especially bop, is alternate picking of 8th notes. I'm not talking about covering the heads of horn players like Bird, Brownie, 'Trane . . etc. I'm talking about when blowing over the changes in their tunes.

Regarding your question about Benson . . . even he couldn't confirm that. I've referenced this interview before, where Benson said that Kenny Burrell once asked him if he picked every note. Benson said . . (in this interview) . . that he responded to Kenny . . . "I don't know. I just play". That's pretty much where I'm at. If I stop to think about picking technique . . . I'm pretty much going to lose everything else. "I just play".

[henryrobinett]

I even take it so far as trying to play triplets either down, up, down or down, up, up. Impossible at faster clips, but that first note should be a downstroke to my ear, unless the phrasing is different. But I NEVER hear anyone talking about that. People play triplets however they can play them.

[inwalkedbud]

Do You have any ideas / suggestions for me ?

I think we may be able to bring all this hullabaloo full circle and off up suggestions...


It sounds like we've got some votes for a healthy mix of economy and alternating and some holdouts for emphasizing alternating... I think the reservations about economy picking on both sides have to do with articulation. I've heard references to "time", "swing feel", "pocket", "groove", "articulation" ... but I think all of that comes back to how the notes you play grab a hold of the beat. I think economy picking generally feels like the emphasis is on the guitar and not on the music so maybe you try working on economy picking while controlling your accents?

- Try playing very slowly with 100% freakishly even volume ie ZERO accents anywhere
- Maybe then try playing various accent patterns (loud soft loud soft ... soft loud soft loud ... loud soft soft loud soft soft... blah blah... go crazy)
- Maybe try intentionally accenting awkward parts of the picking pattern like try playing your scales economy picking with three notes per string like people do when they work on economy picking. Try accenting the first or second note of every triplet or the third. Isolate where your sound starts to gets uneven and work on it.

Thoughts ... ?

[cosmic gumbo]

Since swinging eighth notes is a fundamental aspect of alt picking, and the accent for jazz is on the offbeat (upbeat), do many of you start a measure (downbeat) with an upstroke so all the accents can flow with downstrokes?

[fep]

I've got a few picking techniques I experiment with including the Benson style of picking. It's much easier and more natural feeling to accent the upstrokes with the Benson Technique, at least for me.

[3625]

I've got a few picking techniques I experiment with including the Benson style of picking. It's much easier and more natural feeling to accent the upstrokes with the Benson Technique, at least for me.

Yeah, I agree - the pick angle unique to Benson picking has a lot to do with that. With other styles, if the pick is parallel to the strings, the downstroke has a tendency to sound stronger than the upstroke, but the 'reverse angle' pick position of the Benson style really pops out those upstroke notes.

However, the 'cupped hand' position of GB picking makes consecutive upstrokes across strings a bit unnatural IME - can be done, but alt. when descending feels better in terms of hand/arm position.

Patrick - regarding GB, I think I might have been recalling instead that Rodney Jones (who might have studied with GB ?) teaches his students that you down sweep when asc. and use strict alternate when desc.

[coolvinny]

Since swinging eighth notes is a fundamental aspect of alt picking, and the accent for jazz is on the offbeat (upbeat), do many of you start a measure (downbeat) with an upstroke so all the accents can flow with downstrokes?

Not me personally. I just whipped through a few Billy Bean lines I've transcribed and internalized from his solo on The End of A Love Affair (I've transcribed almost half the solo) and in my opinion he sometimes ends with upstrokes and sometimes with downstrokes...just seems like the line takes him where it takes him.

[TonyB56]

When I use a pick I predominately use alt picking but most of my life I've played using my thumb and I don't think about what method I'm using I'm more interested in the feel and groove to worry about technicalities.