Stop using a pick altogether...

**nick1994** · 01-19-2014, 09:55 PM

I've actually moved from only playing single lines with my fingers, to only using a pick because I couldn't keep a consistent tone with my fingers.

**jzucker** · 01-19-2014, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by nick1994

I've actually moved from only playing single lines with my fingers, to only using a pick because I couldn't keep a consistent tone with my fingers.

that's not the fault of the technique. listen to either of the french Sylvains

**nick1994** · 01-19-2014, 10:55 PM

I think it had more to do with the fact that my nails were all rough and harsh but I've since been filing my nails and now they're smooth and rounded, I just only use them for comping now.

**bob dullam** · 01-20-2014, 12:10 AM

as of this writing, am converting all of my Frank G. licks (sweeping) to open right hand. and ya know what, for the amount of time I've put into it so far, way easier than using a pick. We'll see how it goes.

**orri** · 01-20-2014, 06:42 AM

You could try to not use a pick at all for a few months or a year and then at some point reevaluate your decision based on your experience, and see if it something you want to continue with or start using a pick again.

**targuit** · 01-20-2014, 10:31 AM

Classically trained, I play both fingerstyle, hybrid, and occasionally with a pick. I have never been comfortable with wearing a thumb pick. I agree that playing single note lines at the fastest tempos is easier with a pick. But for most of my repertoire of jazz standards, classical style and hybrid picking is just fine.

I was studying a Wes Montgomery video ( a famous clip of him with playing Round Midnight with McCoy Tyner and other cats) when I realized why it is harder for me to emulate the tone of his playing. Simplistically, some individuals have a thumb with a marked curvature distally like Wes. It is said by insiders that he also had a very built up callus on the radial side of his thumb, so Wes got a lot of skin on the strings when he plucked. My thumb has a much less marked curvature, and to emulate that sound I have to alter my (classical) high arched right hand position. But I find that if I play in a position associated with the lute, with less of an arch to the wrist and a radial direction rotation that puts the hand more in alignment with the axis of the guitar neck, that I can emulate Wes' sound. It gives what I call the "woosh" brushing effect of his right hand strum when he plays chords or his octaves.

I've been working on the left hand position as well, varying slightly from the classical left hand position to a more arched, but also angled position of the left hand which facilitates playing single and double stop notes faster. In this case the key is increasing the vertical angulation of the neck (cello-like posture) and keeping the left thumb on the underside and more to the median line of the guitar neck. I suspect a less thick and a thinner or flatter "D" profile of the neck might facilitate what I'm trying to accomplish.

Anatomy as destiny. Anyway, I probably use a pick much less than 10% of the time.

Jay

**ColinO** · 01-20-2014, 10:49 AM

Learn all methods and likely you will gravitate to the one which suits you. I personally think that the reason that different people use different styles is because for some reason they are naturally better at one or the other. For example, I took classical guitar lessons for years and played at a reasonable level but for some reason never could get the knack of playing single line improv with just my fingers so I use a pick. I'm half-way decent with my fingers comping and for chord melody stuff but just couldn't get any speed up on single line stuff which is to be counter-intuitive given my background.

Anyway, the point is, that some techniques work for some people and not so well for others. You have to find the one that works best for you. The only way I can think of to do that is to work on all of them and let nature take its course.

**jzucker** · 01-20-2014, 10:59 AM

that's good advice Colin. I once spent 6 months switching to fingerstyle ala eubanks. I got to the point where I could play even lines as good as the pick and play over tunes like Giant Steps and Countdown at 1/4 = 300.

Two problems I had were that the thumb would develop a callous which would catch on the strings and occasionally would tear off and when that happened, it was almost impossible to play.

Also, when I'd play with a band, the softer sound of the fingers caused me to have to play louder than normal in order to cut through the mix. I'm now thinking a thumbpick or pick and fingers would be a good compromise.

**NSJ** · 01-20-2014, 11:04 AM

The one thing I need to be cognizant of when playing fingersyle is to be able to use the thumb as a strumming mechanism -not in the Wes "corn" style, I can't do that, but just using the nails and flesh to do conventional strumming. Lots of comping demands a feel that is best achieved by strumming (Freddie Green, Charleston patterns) and there , for me, the pick works much better then my thumb . Yep -hybrid pick and fingers comes in really handy to switch off from block chord type polyphony to 4 to the bar strumming )

**mr. beaumont** · 01-20-2014, 11:14 AM

I'm a pick and fingers guy, unless I'm playing nylon strings...then it's all fingers for me.

I can't get along with a thumbpick...just feels so weird to me.

**bharris22** · 01-20-2014, 11:22 AM

I have been thinking about this, too. I am very comfortable playing chords with just fingers, and prefer the sound of the chords this way, but simply cannot play single lines with just fingers. Thus, I have just begun trying to be comfortable with using both the pick and fingers (hybrid, right?). I still don't like the sound as much as just fingers, and my pinky (which doesn't really get used when I play just fingers) is still weak in relation to the other fingers, so thus far I have been having trouble getting the highest notes in chords to sound. Long-term, however, I think hybrid is the only way for me to go if I hope to comp and solo in the same song.

**jzucker** · 01-20-2014, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by NSJ

The one thing I need to be cognizant of when playing fingersyle is to be able to use the thumb as a strumming mechanism -not in the Wes "corn" style, I can't do that, but just using the nails and flesh to do conventional strumming. Lots of comping demands a feel that is best achieved by strumming (Freddie Green, Charleston patterns) and there , for me, the pick works much better then my thumb . Yep -hybrid pick and fingers comes in really handy to switch off from block chord type polyphony to 4 to the bar strumming )

that's why I'm attracted to pick/fingers or thumbpick. Also, funk and certain bossa feels are nice to be able to do with a pick.

**mr. beaumont** · 01-20-2014, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by bharris22

I have been thinking about this, too. I am very comfortable playing chords with just fingers, and prefer the sound of the chords this way, but simply cannot play single lines with just fingers. Thus, I have just begun trying to be comfortable with using both the pick and fingers (hybrid, right?). I still don't like the sound as much as just fingers, and my pinky (which doesn't really get used when I play just fingers) is still weak in relation to the other fingers, so thus far I have been having trouble getting the highest notes in chords to sound. Long-term, however, I think hybrid is the only way for me to go if I hope to comp and solo in the same song.

I don't use the pinky when hybrid picking...I either stick to 3 note chords or "brush" the ring finger upwards to get two strings...

**bharris22** · 01-20-2014, 12:13 PM

Actually, I just realized that maybe the answer for me is to hold the pick while hybrid picking, but turn it on its side so that I get just the flesh of the thumb playing the bass notes in these chords. I will still need to learn to use/strengthen my pinky, but this seems to solve the problem of not liking the sound of the picked bass note in these chords, while still having the pick available for use in single note lines.

**mangotango** · 01-20-2014, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

I think I read somewhere that holland has a new cd out with eubanks on it. That extensions CD had great writing and great playing on it.

Holland has a band called Prism that includes Kevin Eubanks. I was going to see them at Ronnie's recently but was put off by listening to their album, which was OK but just a little flat. However, a friend went to see the band live and said that they nailed it, so I had a listen to some youTube videos and they were much better. Missed out there.

**bobby d** · 01-20-2014, 05:59 PM

Another advantage: Never drop a pick again! Whatever happened to gorilla snot? Was that just for Rockers in bar bands?

**pkirk** · 01-20-2014, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by bobby d

Another advantage: Never drop a pick again! Whatever happened to gorilla snot? Was that just for Rockers in bar bands?

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/acces...t-gorilla-snot

Anybody ever use it? it sounds intriguing.

**teok** · 01-20-2014, 09:31 PM

I love that this thread has gone from figuratively 'dropping' the pick to literally dropping the pick.

**ronjazz** · 01-21-2014, 02:30 PM

I generally use a pick on steel strings, but when I play in a drummerless format, the fingers work and sound great. My background is classical and flamenco, so the technique isn't the issue, but the sound can be. Tim Miller seems to be able to do whatever he hears with the hybrid style; Lennie Breau had no issues with speed, Mick Goodrick threw the pick away years ago, as did Joe Pass, eventually, and Martin Taylor divides his time equally between pick and fingers. If one wants to play "jazz" with the fingers, perhaps a Godin Multiac is the way to go: nylon strings, but the sustain of an electric, with plenty of tonal variations available from the excellent RMC pickup system. One thing that seems to be important to mention: most fingerstyle players on electric use a lighter gauge than plectrists do; I know that I favor 11-46 for playing fingerstyle on my electrics, and Van Eps played a lighter gauge AND tuned down a step after he abandoned the pick.

Know that fingerstyle playing takes a serious amount of practicing to get a fluid technique, though. You can't get anywhere just fooling around with it.

**jzucker** · 01-21-2014, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by ronjazz

I generally use a pick on steel strings, but when I play in a drummerless format, the fingers work and sound great. My background is classical and flamenco, so the technique isn't the issue, but the sound can be. Tim Miller seems to be able to do whatever he hears with the hybrid style; Lennie Breau had no issues with speed, Mick Goodrick threw the pick away years ago, as did Joe Pass, eventually, and Martin Taylor divides his time equally between pick and fingers. If one wants to play "jazz" with the fingers, perhaps a Godin Multiac is the way to go: nylon strings, but the sustain of an electric, with plenty of tonal variations available from the excellent RMC pickup system. One thing that seems to be important to mention: most fingerstyle players on electric use a lighter gauge than plectrists do; I know that I favor 11-46 for playing fingerstyle on my electrics, and Van Eps played a lighter gauge AND tuned down a step after he abandoned the pick.

Know that fingerstyle playing takes a serious amount of practicing to get a fluid technique, though. You can't get anywhere just fooling around with it.

As mentioned before, it's hard to get fingers to cut through with a clean tone. Even wes used to deal with this and often wished he could play with a pick. Kind of ironic I think. Lots of guys who play with fingers use overdrive to help deal with this. (Tim Miller, Eubanks, abercrombie )

Joe Pass and Mick Goodrick never really developed single line chops at fast tempos on bop tunes. Not that that means anything if you're not playing bop material.

Not a fan of the Multiac personally. I think the Rick Turner guitars are far superior. Van Eps didn't do any significant single line playing with a band so I'm not sure it's entirely relevant.

In my mind, the thumbpick is the way to go ala Brent Mason, Lenny Breau, Bruce Dunlap or do what Paul Bollenback does which is to slip the pick in between the 1st and 2nd fingers when he wants to do fingerstyle. He does it so fast that it's totally integrated into his playing.

I'm interested in hearing from Sylvain Courtney since he's got this !@#$ down really cold.

**Engine Swap** · 01-21-2014, 02:55 PM

I "dropped" the pick about a year ago when I started to play again after a 10+ year layoff. I think I was inspired by Joe Pass and Jeff Beck (of all people).

I just play solo and don't play extened single note runs. I use my thumb to strum and for bass lines, while using my first 3 fingers to play partial chords and single lines.

Overall, it's kinda a made up style, but I'm happy with the direction that it's going. It feels very self-contained and organic. I'm able to come up with lines that would never be possible with a pick.

**monk** · 01-21-2014, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by bobby d

Use the technique that allows you to express what you want to play. Johnny Smith always used a pick while George Van Eps never used one. Both are masters of their technique, able to execute their ideas playing solo, chords & melody. Van Eps' tone is full and round. Smith's tone is sharp in comparison.

For the record:

George Van Eps spent the largest portion of his career working in big bands and recording sessions as a rhythm guitarist playing with a plectrum. His recorded solos throughout the Thirties and Forties were played with a pick including his first solo efforts for the Jump label in 1948-49. His first solo album Mellow Guitar in 1956 featured a mixture of both plectrum playing and fingerstyle. His recordings and concert appearances from the Sixties until his death were exclusively fingerstyle.

**Ronstuff** · 01-21-2014, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

As mentioned before, it's hard to get fingers to cut through with a clean tone. Even wes used to deal with this and often wished he could play with a pick. Kind of ironic I think. Lots of guys who play with fingers use overdrive to help deal with this. (Tim Miller, Eubanks, abercrombie )

Joe Pass and Mick Goodrick never really developed single line chops at fast tempos on bop tunes. Not that that means anything if you're not playing bop material.

Not a fan of the Multiac personally. I think the Rick Turner guitars are far superior. Van Eps didn't do any significant single line playing with a band so I'm not sure it's entirely relevant.

In my mind, the thumbpick is the way to go ala Brent Mason, Lenny Breau, Bruce Dunlap or do what Paul Bollenback does which is to slip the pick in between the 1st and 2nd fingers when he wants to do fingerstyle. He does it so fast that it's totally integrated into his playing.

I'm interested in hearing from Sylvain Courtney since he's got this !@#$ down really cold.

I remember reading a Mark Knopfler interview and his saying that the 'pick is one hell of an amplifier'. I agree that it's hard to get an even sound and the sheer volume with fingers that a pick can more easily deliver. And yes those thumbpick guys are amazing... Only turnoff for me is wanting to do basslines with the sound of the flesh of the thumb. But then again that is only in certain contexts(duo or other) so I guess I might give it another go with the thumbpick. As I mentioned previously Toronto guitarist Lorne Lofsky also uses a thumbpick in a cool way. I really like his playing on his Self titled trio album on the Jazz Inspiration label. Like his tone on that as well. Again Sylvain Courtney amazes me with his right hand!