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I think it's about time for another picking thread:
I've been listening to recordings of my playing and my upstrokes are too weak compared to my downstrokes. Now, I consider myself a fairly advanced player as opposed to a beginner, however it's always important to revisit the fundamentals and I think I've stumbled onto a significant issue as far as my playing is concerned.
I noticed that even though I was picking every note, it was sounding a bit too legato for my taste - not enough definition - and I realised the upstroke thing is why. I play 'traditional' pick grip similar to Kreisberg and Oberg, however I noticed that the 'reverse angle' method of picking used by Benson and others results in a very well defined upstroke, which could be a big part of why that style of picking sounds so percussive and in the pocket when done right. In 'traditional' grip, the downstroke is siding with gravity and the upstroke is naturally quite weak if you're not conscious of addressing it.
Try as I have, I currently can't do 'reverse angle' picking because it seems uncomfortable for my hand no matter how I've attempted it, but obviously there are 'traditional' pickers like Kreisberg, Oberg, and Julian Lage who have no problem getting equal definition to the notes - so this is something I'm going to work on.
Any thoughts?
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12-02-2013 05:28 AM
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along with rotation of the wrist, you might consider retracting your thumb for upstrokes to give them more definition. I had a similar problem with regard to discrepancies in attack of the up-stroke compared to the down. to that effect I've practiced freely using only upstrokes to gauge which combination of the varied muscles in operation allowed me to really feel that "popping" upstroke. At some point, you ought to start feeling a bounce to your upstrokes, which might be a good indication that you're sitting nicely in the pocket and getting good tone. The benson picking naturally does allow for greater parity between the up and downstrokes.
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My advice: Buy Jimmy Bruno's art of picking book and practice the exercises in it diligently for a few weeks. This will fast track your technique and strengthen your upstroke.
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As a sidenote, there is a hard rock guitar player named Paul Gilbert who is an absolute monster at alternate picking. Turns out that when he first began learning to play guitar as a youth, he thought he had to use all upstrokes.
In time he became proficient at playing songs with upstrokes so when he figured out he could use downstrokes, which as you stated has gravity on it side, not to mention seems more natural, he soon could pick with equal strength and speed in both directions.
And boy is he fast, so fast that he can play arpeggios alternate picking faster than many can play with sweep picking.
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I've come to regard upstrokes as purely a necessary evil. Spent years learning to alternate pick, learned gypsy picking and recently just enjoy playing downstrokes. I think it's good for feel, but then I find for my taste that a lot of these alternate picking modern players are little too smooth and equal and swing less than older downstroke heavy players.
Depends what you are trying to achieve I suppose. Acoustic projection is important to me, too. Lighter playing may result in more evenness.
Few of the great bebop era players appear to have been alternate pickers as far as I can tell. Hank Garland was an alternate picker as far as I can see, but I'm not quite sure where this jazz = alternate picking thing comes from.
Some guitarists play with a technique were the beats are always down strokes and the off beats are always up strokes - the implication being that there will always be a difference and you may as well use it.Last edited by christianm77; 12-02-2013 at 07:23 PM.
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I've rotated my wrist (oo errr missus) for some years now, but with struggling to master the gypsy picking thing, I've noticed that arm weight becomes more important in downstrokes, meaning less rotation, and rotation only for upstrokes. This has the advantage of affording good acoustic projection with plenty of relaxation in the arm which is what you need for those blazing gypsy runs! The other side - upstrokes will sound markedly different from down. Gypsy picking just accepts this an works with it. I think it sounds good for jazz in general - you get a nice bounce to phrases.
Not sure how this would translate into electric specific playing but I do remember an article where Kurt Rosenwinkel discusses arm weight -undervalued resource among guitar players but well known in piano technique.
If it's evenness you seek, rotating your wrist evenly with a steep wrist angle (which you can get by using the benson technique or a broken/floating wrist traditional approach) may get you there.Last edited by christianm77; 12-02-2013 at 07:29 PM.
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I am pretty much indifferent between upstrokes and downstrokes, through many hundred hours of practice. I also used to do the chromatic left-hand-while-picking exercise starting on upstrokes. My downstrokes have more authority when I really want them to, but generally speaking I don't see them as a weakness. I have bigger weaknesses
I think you just have to project the sound concept you have in your mind when you practice your picking...making little conscious and subconscious tweaks to get the tone you like and paying attention when a sound comes out that you don't like...and when a sound comes out that you like. I know I have made adjustments over the past year especially to my picking technique, but I can't explain what they are. I make the tone my goal and the rest sort of works itself out, as longa as I deliberately practice it.
Disclaimer: I did move from a beveled pick to a non-beveled pick to help me with my tone, and I find this helped.
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Play from the elbow and you will have a balanced upstroke with your downstroke.
Tony DeCaprio is the master teacher of picking, look for his lessons.
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I use the regular downward pick angle, and have more power to upstrokes. As mentioned here, retract the thumb and index finger going up and you'll have more power than you'll ever need
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I think that it is not about power, is about even strokes.
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Most guitarists nowadays use economy picking, including the ones you mentioned.
Most of the time, these guys only downstroke when moving down strings, and upstroke when moving up, as to go with the flow of the movement. Mike Moreno does a lot of hammer-on and pull-off stuff as to not have to pick multiple times on one string. Kreisberg picks a lot more, but still follows the economy thing.
The way you practice this stuff is to balance out your accenting. If you have to accent something with an upstroke, make sure the rest of the things you're playing are unaccented. Try doing simple alternate picking exercises (chromatic scale, major scale, ect.) and pick your upstrokes hard enough to snap the string, and make them equally strong.
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Thanks for all the replies - I've been shedding a fair bit lately and found a few very subtle things going on that I've been addressing. I've noticed the weak upstrokes are a consequence of my having the pick parallel to the string, which feels comfortable to me in terms of wrist position - but now I'm trying out how to angle it a bit. I've noticed having an angle - either 'traditional' or 'Benson/reverse' gives the upstrokes a lot more definition.
JC Stylles - money's real tight atm, otherwise I'd shell out the bucks to give your method a try. I kinda chuckle at your over the top marketing style, but you've got great picking chops - despite the fact you're a North Queenslander
Of all the players around with super chops, Oberg is probably the one I can relate to the most in terms of hand position and pick grip.
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When it comes to picking techniques for guitar, rarely does anyone mention the positive musical effect of having a weaker upstroke. I'm a bit surprised by this, as it is fundamental to rhythmical articulation. Music has strong and weak beats. Strong = Down. Weak = Up. This was known to Renaissance lute players. Fiddlers are often obsessed with it - notice how all the violin players in an orchestra do the same down or upstrokes at the same time. You wouldn't last long in an orchestra if you did otherwise. Classical guitarists spend hours evening-out the natural inequalities in their fingers, whereas lute players exploit the inequalities. It's an interesting topic from an historical and stylistic perspective.
I'm not saying having the upstroke as strong as your downstroke is unmusical, just that it has a different musical effect. Something to ponder, maybe.
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Good post Rob - it struck me how renaissance right hand technique for single note passages is similar in many ways to the Benson technique in terms of hand position. I guess the difference is that in jazz you want a well defined note for the off beats whereas in early music the accents are reversed.
Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
From about 7mins in, Paul Odette in this vid describes the historical transition lutenists made from plectrums to fingerstyle where he demonstrates the 'Bensonesque' (!) method of renaissance single line technique - even with an anchored pinky! I recommend all Benson pickers to check this out
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There is more than one lute technique, of course, as humans were as much a varied and squabbling lot then as they are now. But as a general approach to Renaissance-period technique, it boiled down to the index plays the weak beats, with either the thumb or middle finger on the strong beats. This gives an inequality of stress, which keeps the music moving forward, and you know where you are in a bar.
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Except for jazz it's mostly the other way around. Gotta emphazize offbeats to make it swing Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
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Ha! But that's not what people are discussing here. Some guitarists are trying to make both up and down stroke equal. No syncopation there...
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just work on the pat martino lick but practice it starting with an upstroke.
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Nice lick Jack. Thanks for sharing.
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One thing that will help is using an upward angle Picking slightly up from face of Guitar on upstrokes and the reverse on downstrokes.
What Troy Grady calls "downward pick slant" I called "alternate up picking"
long long ago to remind myself what it was for.
It creates more bite on upstrokes when you want it just like the control you already have on downstrokes.
I did a lot of work to make upstrokes and downstrokes sound the same and to be able to accent either one the same.
1)Get the Angle .It will adjust as you get used to it and be very subtle .
2)Practice the Jimi Hendrix minor third "hammer " that he used to do without picking-
2)BUT pick both notes you need to accent the higher note.
A) Of course you will do it with the accent on the Downstroke
3) THEN do it with Accent on the upstroke.
Keep at it it will get easier the "UP " angle can be very subtle depending how you hold your pick and barely necessary at all eventually.
Possible Tip - you MAY want to loop your index finger ( *pick grip )rather than have it extended BUT don't change unless there is a lot of weakness or pain that recurs.
[*Pick rests on side of first joint of Index Finger because Index Finger is bent rather than extended- this can strengthen upstrokes IF you have small or thin fingers-BUT don' t change unless exercises remain difficult and hurt your Index Finger-
You MAY only need to change your mind and nail those upstrokes.]
Possible Tip 2- It May help to grip the farthest from the strings front corner of the pick a bit more for more leverage on upstrokes- will take a bit more strength but will" dig in" more .
Another exercise is just a Tremelo like Mandolin players or Dick Dale used- as an advanced player this will drive you nuts but
there is definitely a magic hand position where upstrokes and downstrokes sound the same ( and probably more than one magic position- of course).
Get the strength part first you may not need to change ANYTHING - do the stupidly simple exercises first
THEN gradually syncopate your playing by accenting upstrokes- it will work in naturally...kind of bleeding over from the exercises.
Then you can work it in more and get more musical with it.
Practice sometimes with eyes closed to get the feel.
Disregard the fatigue as long as no major pain ..problems etc.Last edited by Robertkoa; 10-27-2015 at 08:29 PM.
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