Alternate Picking (Floating hand VS Anchored)

[christianm77]

Remember that metal players have a different aesthetic in terms of tone. What will work technically for a metal or even fusion player won't produce a good clean jazz tone, even a contemporary tone. The positioning will be all wrong.

[MatsP]

Remember that metal players have a different aesthetic in terms of tone. What will work technically for a metal or even fusion player won't produce a good clean jazz tone, even a contemporary tone. The positioning will be all wrong.

That's right. Perhaps jazz players can live with some symphatetic resonance, I don't know. In any case, not damping symphatetically ringing strings when using lots of distortion quickly leads to sonic chaos

And positioning, yes. Many jazz players play by the neck pickup, and I like to do that too with my non-jazz Schecter C-1 Classic to get a fuller tone. But it's not an optimal position for a *really* relaxed wrist. That can only be achieved by planting it on the bridge, for example (while sacrificing the optimal tone, unfortunately). Or by using Jimmy Bruno's elbow technique.

[ginod]

I am not sure if this assertion is true. There are many great Jazz Players who play sometimes with distortion. Furthermore there are some fusion or Rock Players who can play clean jazz lines. This Equation comes to the same question. Are players able to play with a nice jazz tone if they use resting wrist ? For me the answer is simple - Sure they can and many jazz players do this. Julian Lage, Mike Moreno, Andreas Öberg, Lage Lund, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Gilad Hekselman and many many more don't floating with his hand above the strings all the time. They all damp the lower strings while playing solo lines. the only guys who don't do this are Gypsy Guys. But Players like Öberg play Gypsy with resting wrist as well and play really good.
Even Rosenberg is using his pinky as an anchor on the top of the Gypsy guitar.

I am not want to say that anchor or resting wrist is better. But in my opinion, there is not only one way to get a nice tone.

[MatsP]

That's right. Perhaps jazz players can live with some symphatetic resonance, I don't know. In any case, not damping symphatetically ringing strings when using lots of distortion quickly leads to sonic chaos

And positioning, yes. Many jazz players play by the neck pickup, and I like to do that too with my non-jazz Schecter C-1 Classic to get a fuller tone. But it's not an optimal position for a *really* relaxed wrist. That can only be achieved by planting it on the bridge, for example (while sacrificing the optimal tone, unfortunately). Or by using Jimmy Bruno's elbow technique.

This was perhaps a bit controversial, sorry. But this is how *I* feel from a personal standpoint. I'm not really able to get a really relaxed hand/wrist by having it float in mid-air, or even brushing lower strings with the palm. There will always be some tension on top of the hand somewhere. Your mileage may vary.

[MatsP]

Greetings all you beautiful people!, ive been noticing the way Andreas Oberg uses his pick, (Him and many many others)
Their picking hand doesnt touch the guitar at all, just the pick. I just started practicing this technique this week and its super awkward for now, was wondering if anybody had any insight or experience with this!

His picking hand DOES touch the lower strings while playing on higher strings. I have it black on white, since I mailed him once about it, and he was kind to answer.

[MatsP]

I am not sure if this assertion is true. There are many great Jazz Players who play sometimes with distortion. Furthermore there are some fusion or Rock Players who can play clean jazz lines. This Equation comes to the same question. Are players able to play with a nice jazz tone if they use resting wrist ? For me the answer is simple - Sure they can and many jazz players do this. Julian Lage, Mike Moreno, Andreas Öberg, Lage Lund, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Gilad Hekselman and many many more don't floating with his hand above the strings all the time. They all damp the lower strings while playing solo lines. the only guys who don't do this are Gypsy Guys. But Players like Öberg play Gypsy with resting wrist as well and play really good.
Even Rosenberg is using his pinky as an anchor on the top of the Gypsy guitar.

I am not want to say that anchor or resting wrist is better. But in my opinion, there is not only one way to get a nice tone.

Yes Öberg does have an amazing technique. But he doesn't plant his wrist heavily on lower strings, only brushing them as a point of reference.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I wonder if muting isn't less of a big deal than people think. One surprise is how much string ring Adam Rogers gets when he is playing at practice levels in his music masterclass vid.

It doesn't seem to be an issue when he plays live, often with drive.

I wonder if he mutes a bit when playing with distortion but does t bother when clean.

I might add that it does bother me, but not when I play acoustic.

Muting matters to me in the sense that what I don't play is as important as what I do play. I don't always mute even when playing metal. Perhaps the only time I'm constantly muting is when playing slide, and even then, of course, both hands take part in that process ... which is drifting away from the point of this thread anyway.

[christianm77]

That's right. Perhaps jazz players can live with some symphatetic resonance, I don't know. In any case, not damping symphatetically ringing strings when using lots of distortion quickly leads to sonic chaos

And positioning, yes. Many jazz players play by the neck pickup, and I like to do that too with my non-jazz Schecter C-1 Classic to get a fuller tone. But it's not an optimal position for a *really* relaxed wrist. That can only be achieved by planting it on the bridge, for example (while sacrificing the optimal tone, unfortunately). Or by using Jimmy Bruno's elbow technique.

Well a lot of classic ways to pick taught to jazz players actually make it very difficult to mute.

That said a lot of players anchor on the various parts of the guitar - even Grant Green and he's hardly Mr Post-Rock Fusion dude.

[Hep To The Jive]

A lot of ins, a lot of outs in this thread

My observations as a practicing guitarist:

Since I have a busking gig quite frequently, I gravitate more toward acoustic playing these days, and recently got a resonator guitar that helps me a lot to abandon amplification completely even in a band setting. The rhythm playing comes quite naturally, either la pompe or swing or jump blues or whatever... But when it's time to solo, my favourite anchoring pinky technique just falls apart. The only technique that can produce a loud cutting tone for me on single lines is kinda Gypsy style with floating wrist and rest strokes.

With this being said, I always felt uncomfortable playing like that, and couldn't realize why exactly, until it just downed on me that in order to successfully use it I need to be aware of how I switch from string to string. The alternate picking doesn't quite work, but when I construct my lines with starting on downstroke every time I change the string, it becomes much easier! I mean, I knew the Gypsy guys emphasizing this aspect a lot, but I always thought I can get away with playing the acoustic just like I would my tele... Nope. Problem is I never thought of my lines depending on particular picking, because when you alternate it doesn't matter that much.

And alternating technique is what I use playing my tele, or even electrified archtop, and it totally works with anchoring pinky and playing soft, letting the amp do the work. Especially if I'm playing a blues gig (which I do almost every week). See, I started on electric and played for many years, until recently trying to play Gypsy and early swing in acoustic settings.

Anyway, those are my observations, for what it's worth. For some it might be obvious, but I'm still learning.

[ginod]

You know all this picking stuff are remember me of kung fu Styles. There is the Tiger Style, the Panda, the Snake .... . So some people use this Style , another one that Style but if you practice enough you can Smash everyone you want 😃

[christianm77]

Sometimes it's nice to smack the notes out on an electric too. Not so much for more modern jazz gigs though. Gets a bit twangy unless you have silly strings

[threetwoone]

Here maybe you can find some interesting things about right hand technique!

[Robertkoa]

Yes, bevels. They are very sharp on the Tortex picks, and they create lots of noise when you angle the pick, at least on the lower roundwound strings that I'm using. They might fare better with flatwounds, I have no experience of that.

I have tried the pointy version of the Tortex ones, and it's equally noisy to my ears. Both the pointy and the "Fender" style one are noisy with roundwounds.

You know the Gator Grip are even quieter I use 1.5mm or 2.0mm - they are rounded not beveled.
After they break in they can sound like I am tapping even when I pick ( very soft Ghost Notes ) so they are quiet. A little 400 sandpaper as they wear can smooth them back out..

The Bevel you speak of - must be thinner picks than 1.5mm.

I am looking at a Daddario Planet Waves Pick right now called Duragrip 1.5mm - I never use sharply pointed picks . Those often have a harsh edge to the sound -all this stuff depends on a Person's Mechanics so not a 'Universal Truth ' or anything.
Also Players who use distortion lots of delay ( EJ Govan can get away with pointy picks sometimes ).

Also most Picks need about 5 -15 minutes of Playing before they break in and occasional touch ups with 320 or 400 Sandpaper if Recording especially recording 'Direct' because the Cab IR's are great but sometimes unforgiving ..




.

[MatsP]

anchoring your picking hand is simply incorrect. there's no advantage to it. though you can still play well with an anchored hand (kurt rosenwinkel), it's ultimately just limiting what you can do.

a floating hand will be awkward at first if you are not used to it, as with anything, but in the end it offers more control, freedom, and efficiency. i don't really think there's a debate about this.

Who decides what is correct or not? Are there any self-proclaimed guitar technique gods out there? That would be the first time. Look at all the diverging ways of doing things among guitarists. And all of them work for the people in question. I would say not anchoring is prone to create tension in your arm, but then I'm not swinging my forearm with the elbow at the edge of the guitar since I'm using a smaller solid body guitar, and I want to be able to palm mute at will. I suppose swinging from the edge is quite relaxing. If you don't need to palm mute, that is.

[christianm77]

Who decides what is correct or not? Are there any self-proclaimed guitar technique gods out there? That would be the first time. Look at all the diverging ways of doing things among guitarists. And all of them work for the people in question. I would say not anchoring is prone to create tension in your arm, but then I'm not swinging my forearm with the elbow at the edge of the guitar since I'm using a smaller solid body guitar, and I want to be able to palm mute at will. I suppose swinging from the edge is quite relaxing. If you don't need to palm mute, that is.

I wouldn't advise on technique if I didn't have chops myself. As with everything its based on personal experiences, of course.

[MatsP]

I wouldn't advise on technique if I didn't have chops myself. As with everything its based on personal experiences, of course.

Now it wasn't you who wrote this, I take it. Anyway, look at Roy Clark, he anchors his wrist at the bass end of the bridge when he's doing his fast alternate picking stuff, even on an archtop. And he seems to be doing fine. I have been a proponent of moving the hand at string shifts, but it often feels overkill in my book. Perhaps a combination might be fruitful.

[christianm77]

Now it wasn't you who wrote this, I take it. Anyway, look at Roy Clark, he anchors his wrist at the bass end of the bridge when he's doing his fast alternate picking stuff, even on an archtop. And he seems to be doing fine. I have been a proponent of moving the hand at string shifts, but it often feels overkill in my book. Perhaps a combination might be fruitful.

For some reason I didn't clock that you posted a reply to mfa's post. Which I disagree with.

There's plenty of players who anchor, and it works fine. I used to do it.

Floating pick hand alternate picking IMO is the hardest techniques to master (some players kill it though, but they are the exception) - anchored alternate picking is not without its challenges but is much easier, and easy to incorporate with economy style. So I guess I disagree with mfa?

But floating hand is easy enough DWPS style. It has issues with heavily amplified playing.

Most jazzers now start out on electric so it's becoming more common. I have some misgivings about the quality of sound it produces - I advocate for a firm pick attack near the neck for a good traditional electric jazz tone.

I am sad to say I don't know Roy Clark's playing, so can't comment on him in particular.

[MatsP]

For some reason I didn't clock that you posted a reply to mfa's post. Which I disagree with.

There's plenty of players who anchor, and it works fine. I used to do it.

Floating pick hand alternate picking IMO is the hardest techniques to master (some players kill it though, but they are the exception) - anchored alternate picking is not without its challenges but is much easier, and easy to incorporate with economy style. So I guess I disagree with mfa?

But floating hand is easy enough DWPS style. It has issues with heavily amplified playing.

Most jazzers now start out on electric so it's becoming more common. I have some misgivings about the quality of sound it produces - I advocate for a firm pick attack near the neck for a good traditional electric jazz tone.

I am sad to say I don't know Roy Clark's playing, so can't comment on him in particular.

I certainly agree on playing closer to the fretboard giving a more traditional jazz tone, so this anchoring at the bridge is quite limiting in that respect. Swinging from the edge of the guitar with the forearm is perfect when playing closer to the fretboard, but it of course doesn't allow for any palm muting should that be desired.

[MatsP]

For some reason I didn't clock that you posted a reply to mfa's post. Which I I am sad to say I don't know Roy Clark's playing, so can't comment on him in particular.

Roy is somewhat of a country picker, for the record. He recently died. I have to admit I haven't heard of him before. Shame on me!

[christianm77]

Actually the mfa post is so dumb on a number of levels. Sorry, but it is.

People criticising some great player's technique against a dogmatic model of 'correct technique' is pretty hard to take seriously.

Probably my favourite active jazz guitarist is Peter Bernstein. He is a heavy picking hand anchorer.

Kurt? Well I'm willing to bet Kurt can play better than mfa. If not, I'd like to hear.

And so on.

These players found a way to play that worked for them, and got on with playing music. Not once did they worry about doing it 'properly.'

This is exactly like like that dumb-ass stupid three fingered vs four fingered technique thread.

NOW - There are some styles of technique that can be problematic for playing health. So, there is certainly room for a standardised pedagogy. That said I think health issue for me have always come from the fretting hand

But the pedagogy of 'floating hand alternate picking' which is the nearest thing I've found to standard technique - I think that's a crap pedagogy. Sorry, but it is. People who learned this way INVARIABLY have issues with their right hand dexterity, cos it's really hard to do, and you need information on biomechanics to do it well not available from most teachers. Teachers themselves pass it on, because it's how they were taught, so they perpetuate the misery.

There are obviously few players who can do it. But I've not met any in my playing life cos most of them seem to live in Nashville.

[christianm77]

Roy is somewhat of a country picker, for the record. He recently died. I have to admit I haven't heard of him before. Shame on me!

OK. Another example would be Molly Tuttle. Another player whose probably a better picker than everyone on this forum.

[MatsP]

For some reason I didn't clock that you posted a reply to mfa's post. Which I disagree with.

There's plenty of players who anchor, and it works fine. I used to do it.

Floating pick hand alternate picking IMO is the hardest techniques to master (some players kill it though, but they are the exception) - anchored alternate picking is not without its challenges but is much easier, and easy to incorporate with economy style. So I guess I disagree with mfa?

But floating hand is easy enough DWPS style. It has issues with heavily amplified playing.

Most jazzers now start out on electric so it's becoming more common. I have some misgivings about the quality of sound it produces - I advocate for a firm pick attack near the neck for a good traditional electric jazz tone.

I am sad to say I don't know Roy Clark's playing, so can't comment on him in particular.

Actually the mfa post is so dumb on a number of levels. Sorry, but it is.

People criticising some great player's technique against a dogmatic model of 'correct technique' is pretty hard to take seriously.

Probably my favourite active jazz guitarist is Peter Bernstein. He is a heavy picking hand anchorer.

Kurt? Well I'm willing to bet Kurt can play better than mfa. If not, I'd like to hear.

And so on.

These players found a way to play that worked for them, and got on with playing music. Not once did they worry about doing it 'properly.'

This is exactly like like that dumb-ass stupid three fingered vs four fingered technique thread.

NOW - There are some styles of technique that can be problematic for playing health. So, there is certainly room for a standardised pedagogy. That said I think health issue for me have always come from the fretting hand

But the pedagogy of 'floating hand alternate picking' which is the nearest thing I've found to standard technique - I think that's a crap pedagogy. Sorry, but it is. People who learned this way INVARIABLY have issues with their right hand dexterity, cos it's really hard to do, and you need information on biomechanics to do it well not available from most teachers. Teachers themselves pass it on, because it's how they were taught, so they perpetuate the misery.

There are obviously few players who can do it. But I've not met any in my playing life cos most of them seem to live in Nashville.

Right. Now I get you regarding mfa and I agree. It's very hard to be relaxed with a completely floating hand, and quite unnatural as well. We don't write with our hand hovering above the desk.

[MatsP]

OK. Another example would be Molly Tuttle. Another player whose probably a better picker than everyone on this forum.

Oh she's great. She anchors and floats depending on the situation. For single-string picking she anchors because it invariably gives better precision.

[christianm77]

Right. Now I get you regarding mfa and I agree. It's very hard to be relaxed with a completely floating hand, and quite unnatural as well. We don't write with our hand hovering above the desk.

Nah. Even Gypsy pickers allow for the knuckles resting on the sound board or scratch plate.

(You can’t do this if you are a pure alternate picker btw, because you’ll end up tilting the picking hand so you are in a downward pickslanting stance)

As I say there are killer floating hand alternate pickers in the world - Carl Milner for instance - and there is something going on here which is not obvious to make that work.

Tbh I often feel the fact that i have never had an issue with my picking is partly down to the fact that I never had a teacher telling me what I was practicing is wrong.

Now we could talk about the odd phenomenon of teachers not teaching what they actually do, but rather what they think they should be doing lol.

[christianm77]

Oh she's great. She anchors and floats depending on the situation. For single-string picking she anchors because it invariably gives better precision.

Peter Bernstein is very similar