Economy picking a no-no?

[christianm77]

Definitely not! There are almost as many ways of picking as jazz guitarists it seems! Jimmy Bruno and Jimmy Rainey for example, seem to use variations on an economy picking technique.

[Jehu]

We did not evolve to play the guitar; it is an unnatural activity.

I don't know -- any adaptation that confers a reproductive advantage is more likely to be passed on.

So maybe not jazz guitar, necessarily...

[princeplanet]

Wow, this discussion is making me appreciate the fact that I somehow learned both. Every new arpeggio, scale, line, device, pattern, sequence, lick etc, I make sure to practice both ways. It takes extra time, no doubt about it, but I love how my right hand finds it's own way to pick any thing my left hands wishes to play. In fact, from one day to the next, I find I'll pick certain things differently according to how I feel. It's not just alternate vs eco, but how to combine them.

Seems years of drilling the right hand in various ways can pay off, but I was afraid for a time that my right hand would be confused if it had too many options, in fact, that was true for quite a time. But now manual technique is less a concern for me than mental technique. I just hope I've left myself enough years to conquer that mountain.....

[AlainJazz]

I picked using alternate picking for 30 years because my teacher as a kid insisted that I use it. It never became natural and I always asked myself why I sucked at faster tempos. I switched to the Jimmy Bruno method about 4 years ago and have never looked back. My time and tone are way better than they used to be and I can now play fast tempo tunes with no problem. Do whatever gets you the best results and stick with it. The switch was awkward at first but there is no such thing as a bad habit that you can't break. It took about 2 months and I was already at the level I was before with alternate picking. After that it has been steady improvement.

[jdaguitar2]

Both styles are good for certain applications, obviously playing arpeggios on adjacent strings is effective with the economy style but some passages need the alternate "feel" to sound right. I think the best players synthesize a combination of the two.

[nosoyninja]

do both!

They both have their ups and downs.

Well, if we get specific, alternate picking has it's ups and downs... but economy has a few ups ups and down downs in there as well, if you know what I mean.

[jazzgtrl4]

I picked using alternate picking for 30 years because my teacher as a kid insisted that I use it. It never became natural and I always asked myself why I sucked at faster tempos. I switched to the Jimmy Bruno method about 4 years ago and have never looked back. My time and tone are way better than they used to be and I can now play fast tempo tunes with no problem. Do whatever gets you the best results and stick with it. The switch was awkward at first but there is no such thing as a bad habit that you can't break. It took about 2 months and I was already at the level I was before with alternate picking. After that it has been steady improvement.

idid the same thing with the bruno method a few years ago. Yes awkward at first. some bum notes popping out etc. but no i dont think about it anymore. would be nice to incorporate both tech at some point. Maybe start working on my alt picking a little and work that in as well.

[MarkRhodes]

Definitely not! There are almost as many ways of picking as jazz guitarists it seems! Jimmy Bruno and Jimmy Rainey for example, seem to use variations on an economy picking technique.

That's why Frank Vignola won't give advice about picking. Too many great players do it differently. (Yet not all the different players do it greatly. Hhmmm...)

[pauln]

Just my thoughts from my experience...

I'm self taught and discovered decades later that the way I pick was economy picking, more recently that it is Chuck Wayne picking.

The most significant attribute of economy is that it involves no conscious effort; all the decision mechanics are totally submerged and managed by the coordination development of the right hand and one never worries about the direction of any pick stroke no matter what the configuration of a line's expression on the strings. The feeling is absolutely effortless and transparent because the hand "knows" how to do everything by itself.

For someone who plays economy, the concept of alternate picking has a peculiar relationship to economy - alternate picking is a subset of economy... there are certain lines where the economy picking actually manifests as a series of alternate picked notes because the notes per string and string changes just happen to work out such that the economy picking result is identical to the result of using alternate picking. In effect, a pure economy picker would find upon examination that his picking actually has little segments here and there of strict alternate as an artifact of both methods producing the same result for certain configurations of lines.

As far as the timing discussion, I reject all of it. My jazz records don't have saxes or trumpets or guitars playing lock step with beat divisions; the musicians have a beat width within which they flow forward and backwards, sometime a great deal. The pace of the song is not the immediate pace of the solo lines. The musicians have an internal local sense of "proper time" and express themselves against that in "coordinate time", to borrow the distinction from Relativity. Whatever picking style, the timing variations of the picking in coordinate time do not interfere with the musician's sense of proper time - it is the difference between the two that comprises the deliberate and expressive time accents, leading, and lagging of phrases in jazz playing.

As far as learning both economy and alternate picking, I suspect an asymmetry. For one already picking economy and adding alternate picking, I think the difference would be that the old way is done by thinking nothing, but the new way is done by thinking about it. For the other way, learning economy after picking alternate, both the old way and the new way may require thinking about it. Maybe people representing examples of both directions could comment on this?

[christianm77]

I sometimes feel there is a little too much focus on the mechanics producing music here. While that can be true to an extent, my experience has been that working from really hearing a phrase an being able to sing it with appropriate accents and inflections usually suggests something physical on an intuitive level. The guitar 'plays itself' to some extent.

That's why we practice exercises imo - to equip us with the resources to do this.

Now different players employ different resources. Holdsworth for instance had a very unusual approach, but I think his thing came from the sound and phrasing he wanted to create and I have heard that he felt he had quite a limited right hand technique which is interesting.

I very much doubt at any point Allan, Raney, Django etc where thinking about technique - they had something that worked for them and set about making music with it.

[MarkRhodes]

I very much doubt at any point Allan, Raney, Django etc where thinking about technique - they had something that worked for them and set about making music with it.

I can't speak for them but Wes certainly put in a lot of time on his techniques. Especially playing octaves. He said it gave him headaches but he kept doing it until he got it down. And Charlie Parker claimed to have put in about 11 hours a day for three-four years. Lot of technique work there.

[christianm77]

I can't speak for them but Wes certainly put in a lot of time on his techniques. Especially playing octaves. He said it gave him headaches but he kept doing it until he got it down. And Charlie Parker claimed to have put in about 11 hours a day for three-four years. Lot of technique work there.

Mark, please reread my post carefully. I think that quote you pulled out is worded in a slightly slapdash way for my own part. (Of course they thought about technique somewhere along the line - I mean at the moment of playing music, not in terms of practice.)

To expand - practice technique. Sure. Can't comment on the other guys lol. In the past 20 years or so I have worked on:

1) economy picking
2) alternate
3) upward pick slanting
4) gypsy picking
5) benson picking

At the moment I am working on legato technique.

(The good news is you don't need to find that many ways of doing something. Just two or three will be fine.)

I don't mean 'don't work on technique.' That's manifestly a stupid thing to say. You don't mysteriously acquire technique. You learn it by running by running mechanical exercises, scales, patterns, etudes and so on.

I mean don't micromanage technique in the moment of musical creation. Have it there lurking in the background waiting to facilitate what the ear HEARS.

I don't think about *how* to articulate phrases unless they are technically very demanding.

Questions about 'should I pick up or down here' are a bit, well, micromanaged. You start with the sound and the phrasing and go from there. Let musical considerations drive technique, don't ask what effect mechanical technique will have on your music. To me that's *backwards*.

If you think that way, you will end up playing out of time, because you won't be hearing the music clearly. IMO.

I just say this because I am aware that I am considered a technically capable player (whatever other shortcomings my playing has), so my advice may be valuable in this area.

But I certainly wouldn't want to give anyone the impression that my technique wasn't worked on in a very conscious way.

[whiskey02]

"Questions about 'should I pick up or down here' are a bit, well, micromanaged. You start with the sound and the phrasing and go from there. Let musical considerations drive technique, don't ask what effect mechanical technique will have on your music".

This should close the thread.

[Alter]

Alternate picking kind of facilitates playing in the pocket, meaning playing 8th notes in time. Accuracy is a little bit more difficult with economy picking. A mix of both is used a lot in jazz, economy picking with rest strokes when going up a scale, and alternate when going down. It all works, just do whatever feels more natural to you. Also look at what your favorite players are using, or at least the ones playing the styles that interest you

[christianm77]

The most in the pocket way to play is probably all downstrokes.

[MarkRhodes]

Mark, please reread my post carefully. I think that quote you pulled out is worded in a slightly slapdash way for my own part. (Of course they thought about technique somewhere along the line - I mean at the moment of playing music, not in terms of practice.)

Christian, I apologize if I gave offense. I have enjoyed too many of your teaching videos to ever think you gave no thought to technique.

As for the rest, I think there is much more we don't know than we do know. Take Charlie Christian. Not only one of the all-time greats he still sounds fresh, alive, vital, strong, and wonderful. But not even Benny Goodman knew much about how Charlie developed or how he thought about technique, improv, anything. Heck, Benny didn't even know whether Charlie could read music. (Not that he would care one way or the other.) He loved what Charlie played but he had no idea how Charlie thought to play this or that. I have no idea what Charlie thought about technique or how he thought while improvising. No clue. Perhaps he never thought about technique while performing. (We're not even sure how broadly or narrowly he used the term "technique" and whether it would be distinguished from, say, go-to licks and patterns over certain harmonic formulae.)

We just don't know.

I once heard Sinatra respond to a question about how he thought while singing. The context made it clear the interviewer expected an answer such as "I rare back and let it fly" but the answer was he thought about it every second. Part of that has to do with singing---your body is your instrument and you not only have to learn to produce it a certain way, you have to maintain it moment to moment while performing.

I don't know if Sinatra meant that, or if he always thought about it consciously while performing. But it awoke my mind to the possibility that a performer may be thinking about technique more than I had assumed. "He makes it look so easy" can glide into he's "he's not thinking about what he's doing." Some people may be able to read minds but I assuredly can not. I really don't know.

Joe Pass was once asked what he was thinking during a tricky part of a performance and he said that he was thinking he would have to pick up milk on the way home. Is that what he was thinking or a clever line he used whenever he was asked that? I don't know.

From a whole other angle, performers at least sometimes perform something that is in-progress. (Either a tune or a technique---Travis picking, octaves, finger picking, Gypsy picking, whatever.) So you may well be thinking more about technique then than at other portions of the same set. Or if you're singing "The Star-Spangled Banner," you may be more conscious of potential trouble spots than when singing an opening tune that you've done a lot because it's so familiar and gives you a chance to check the sound, lighting, monitors, and what-not without having to worry about the technique required for that piece.) Then there's playing with someone who wants to play "Oleo" at 350 bpm and you're thinking "Oh, sh*t, I better be careful here." Sometimes when the tempo is real solo it is easy to lose focus, play with the rhythms, do some double timing, and suddenly realize you have no idea where you are in the form.

[christianm77]

Alternate picking kind of facilitates playing in the pocket, meaning playing 8th notes in time. Accuracy is a little bit more difficult with economy picking. A mix of both is used a lot in jazz, economy picking with rest strokes when going up a scale, and alternate when going down. It all works, just do whatever feels more natural to you. Also look at what your favorite players are using, or at least the ones playing the styles that interest you

I agree. Some players develop one technique to a high level (Gambale, Rosenberg, Holdsworth, McLaughlin etc) but I enjoy the fluidity of having different articulations to call on.

And yes, economy picking an ascending triplet triad for instance will tend to rush slightly. I know I do it sometimes, especially if I have my amp set too low and I am striking the string too hard.

However - that's no excuse really. You have to feel the beat.

Every instrument with every technique has it's own pitfalls.

For instance, singers go flat when descending stepwise. They learn not to go flat and one way that helps is clear audiation of the pitches and a technique that supports the voice and allows it to move freely.

Also a certain degree of ebb and flow is fine, provided the musician knows exactly where the beat is and isn't just floating around. And this is a musical consideration, not a technical one.

That is - if you are rushing, make sure you can feel that and get back to the beat ASAP.

[Alter]

and i firmly believe that different techniques suit different people and playing styles. If you are trying to learn any technique at all, and it feels too difficult or unnatural even after a while (while you 've done your homework and you are sure you re doing it correctly), then it's probably a good idea to try some different way to achieve that particular technical goal, to try some variation of the particular thing. There are always more ways to do things, you gotta find the one that fits your hands and playing. For example that was the case with alternate picking for me, it never felt right

[Lobomov]

You start with the sound and the phrasing and go from there. Let musical considerations drive technique, don't ask what effect mechanical technique will have on your music. To me that's *backwards*.

Maybe, but then again I think you may be slightly too romantic there

Ear does indeed drive technique, but it also goes the other way around. You get introduced to a technique and get that ... Aah so that is how you do it or Hey that's cool moment. Then you get inspired to explore that further and it becomes part of you. But those sounds wouldn't never have entered your ear, if you hadn't been introduced to the technique first.

My point is that sometimes you need to surrender yourself to a new technique just to see where it will take you your fingers and ear. Without doing that my experience is that your ear tends to gravitate towards stuff that is familiar and dissmiss stuff that you can't play well.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I started playing jazz a few months back and my new teacher told me I shouldn't be economy picking. In most occassions it's not that hard to switch over to alternate picking, but when I'm playing certain lines that have one note per string and go from the A string to the high E, I'm still struggling. Is it really that important for your sound and timing to be alternate picking EVERYTHING and should I try to change it?

I will say this: your teacher is the only one of us who has heard you PLAY. I think there's a lot of value in learning alternate picking as a beginning reference. If you can't do it at a very basic level, it's worth getting it together somewhat, if only for rhythm/accounting aspects. . Life is long. Doesn't mean it's the only thing you'll ever use or need.

[christianm77]

Maybe, but then again I think you may be slightly too romantic there

Ear does indeed drive technique, but it also goes the other way around. You get introduced to a technique and get that ... Aah so that is how you do it or Hey that's cool moment. Then you get inspired to explore that further and it becomes part of you. But those sounds wouldn't never have entered your ear, if you hadn't been introduced to the technique first.

My point is that sometimes you need to surrender yourself to a new technique just to see where it will take you your fingers and ear. Without doing that my experience is that your ear tends to gravitate towards stuff that is familiar and dissmiss stuff that you can't play well.

I can't dismiss this out of hand. Sure.

I do feel a some guitarists are going from technique into music which is an attitude I find hard to relate to.

[Jonah]

I started playing jazz a few months back and my new teacher told me I shouldn't be economy picking. In most occassions it's not that hard to switch over to alternate picking, but when I'm playing certain lines that have one note per string and go from the A string to the high E, I'm still struggling. Is it really that important for your sound and timing to be alternate picking EVERYTHING and should I try to change it?

Temporary restriction could be a part of a method.
Struggling could be a part of learning.

My idea whenever I apply to a teacher I try to do what he wants me to do at least long enough to at least basically master it and see how it works for me.

Even if everybody here will tell you that economy picking is great for jazz... it does not mean that your teacher does something wrong. Mayb ehe noticed some minor problems you have in technique .

Alternate picking is a good way to stabilize picking technique, to make a grip firm and attack focused and precise. Maybe this is a goal?

What does your teacher say about it? Did you ask him?

[ginod]

Hey,

4 years ago i decided to change my technique to a kind of economy picking. I would call it Gypsy Picking and also Reverse Gypsy Picking.

It worked really fine to me in medium tempo. But everytime i went to double time and want increase the speed i get loosing the time pretty early. I mean i can pick out lines really fast. But in band context, its hard to lock into the groove of the band and the microtime

The most problems are longer String scale runs with economy picking. Especially when i went from the botton strings a longer run to the higher strings.

For example a Cmajor Scale

-------------------------------------------------------------7---8
---------------------------------------------------8---10---------
----------------------------------------7--9-10-------------------
--------------------------7---9---10-------------------------------
-----------7--8---10----------------------------------------------
----8--10----------------------------------------------------------

I really don't get into this kind of uneven movement of double down, up, double down up etc.

If i pick this stuff with alternate picking its really no problem and really intime.

I think it's not a big deal to say " Ok iam a alternate picker" I think - Jonathan Kreisberg, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Jesse van Ruller, Lage Lund etc. For sure they use legato techniques, but i do this too

all they say, that they use most of the time Alternate Picking to have more control over the time. And other player don't have the problems like Mike Moreno, Pasquale Grasso, Adam Rogers etc.

The problem is, that i thought "with a bunch of practice, i will reach the target and solve the problem". But after 4 years of playing and practicing with these technique i really miss really nice lock in the groove feel, what Alternate Picking gives me.
Then i watched the video of Lage Lund where he said " Ahh, i don't like to to this and that, because i loose the time" .

I think this was the first time i heard someone say "It's ok not to practice something over and over of you don't feel well with it".

I don't know why i write this thread. But maybe there are some others, who tried to play mostly economy picking for some years and than said "Ok, i think my time is better with Alternate".

Looking forward to hearing your stories

[Jonah]

I think it's not a big deal to say " Ok iam a alternate picker"

Maybe it is even not a big deal just not to say anything about it and just play as it plays until problem comes...

i mean: is it really necessary to take serious decision, opinion and obligation on such an issue?.


I cannot remember I ever took decision to switch to some technique or back... just did what I liked or needed at the moment

[pauln]

Is it productive to conceive some kind of "identity picking" label upon oneself?

Is economy picking really any more than alternate picking pretty much the whole time while on one string and about half the time when changing strings?