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I use downstrokes all the time and bit of sweeping for tarps etc
I can't alt pick to save my life !
I mean I can alt pick but it won't sync up
With my left hand
Any tips for syncing up the hands other
Than start slow
I'd like to burn occasionally like benson
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12-04-2012 02:36 PM
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I use strict alternate picking for lines and economy or sweeps just for arpeggios. Just as Mr B., after getting into gypsy jazz I began using downstrokes when changing strings (but only when I mix lines and arpeggios, otherwise I stick to strict alternate, that's what Reg said you've got to find your own way and stick to it-if I understood correctly).
Originally Posted by pingu
Concerning alternate picking, that's no jazz of course but you can find Paul Gilbert's videos on you tube who has a lot of exercises on alternate picking. That's what allowed me to get up to speed during my neo-classical period 15 years ago...
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I think having a refined down-picking technique is a good tool in your arsenal but I wouldn't switch to only down picks. There is a speed cap w/o alt picking and I think it sets in pretty quickly
. If you are into it practicing some medium-fast metal riffs is a great way to get your down strokes together. I always find that if something is at a speed where I can play it with only down strokes it just kind of comes out, never intentionally.
Unfortunately I can't think of too many other tips. I'll give it a shot though:Any tips for syncing up the hands other
Than start slow
1) Start REALLY slow. Like psuedo-time. Don't make a move unless both hands are prepared to do it in sync. That will definitely help.
2) Try working on alt picking with your right hand only. Part of the issue might be that you aren't comfortable with the technique itself so when you try to coordinate your hands in addition to working an uncomfortable technique it makes it all the harder.
3) Try practicing some difficult string crossing patterns and stuff very slowly. Anything challenging for the left hand. 12 tone rows?
4) An idea just occurred to me and I feel like it might be helpful. Take anything, be it a melody, scale, exercise etc. and pick each note 4 times. So for example if it is a scale, play each note of the scale for the length of half notes, but do 4 8th note pick strokes for each of them. This way you'll be able to work on getting the alt picking to feel natural to you while slowly coordinating your hands. You can start with 8 pick strokes, change to 4, and eventually double pick every note. This is actually a great thing to get anything difficult under your fingers. You'll find once you get comfortable alt picking tremolo picking a single note won't be too difficult, but actually playing a passage in sync with your left hand is the hard part.
I hope that was clear, if not I'll make some examples. Part of it is figuring out whether your left or right hand is the problem. I feel like I once came up with ways to figure this out but I forgot ;O.Last edited by Tony_C; 12-04-2012 at 03:00 PM.
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Here's a swing feel example at 280... old example from swing feel thread... but if you check out my picking ... pretty easy to see how I go between alternate and economy... and some combinations to create accents.
The playings not much musically, but the point of the video was about swing feel at faster tempos.
Reg
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Well, if you want to burn like Benson don't worry about alternate picking. Benson picks like a gypsy player: rest down strokes to start each phrase and switch strings, with free upstrokes mixed in for consecutive notes on the same string. He mixes in hammer-ons and pull-offs to suit his picking patterns. Originally Posted by pingu
He also tends to use rest strokes on the high E-string a lot (like old time blues guys), and does use a lot of sweep descending arpeggios as flourishes.
I always think it's funny when this topic comes up and everyone says that alternate picking is the best foundation, yadda yadda. If I had to list the top jazz guitarists of all-time, the only one who actually alternate picks that plays in a more traditional style that I can think of is Johnny Smith and Pat Martino. Not sure how this alternate picking fetish got started.
Django, Christian, Montgomery, Benson, Pass, and Farlow all used rest-stroke picking like what I described above. In my eyes, if you're looking for a technique standard it should be based on what the best players do.Last edited by ecj; 12-07-2012 at 06:21 PM. Reason: clarity
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This has been an interesting and useful thread, thanks to all the contributors. Between this and my picking question on another thread, I've been convinced to start working repeated downstrokes into my practice, although alternate picking is still my basic starting place.
I'm curious how you guys know so much about picking techniques of past masters that have been dead for so long. Is this just knowledge passed down from one player to another over the years?
As an aside Frank V is playing (w/ Bucky Pizzarelli no less) at a very small, intimate venue close to where I live next March. I should be able to sit very close and observe his technique. After that show, probably part of me will want to burn my guitar and another (much, much larger) part will never want to put it down again.
Matt
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I thinbk it was the first developed method. Originally Posted by ecj
if you pluck only down you'll be that fast. If you pluck on a way up, too, you'll be twice as fast. Guess that's reason good enough. After a while someone said, aha, but if I hit stop at the next string, my hand will travel less, so I'll be faster,
Than the next one said "if I don't alternate when switching strings, I could be even faster",
Than "aha, but if a pluck all 6 in one go down and all 6 in one go up, Ill be another 4 times faster",
and so on....
Untill circle closed and someone said, wtf, I'll pluck as it comes, only that way I can be trully expressive.
Then it started rotating again ...
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Hey ecj...
There is a difference between playing something with an established picking method for accent, groove, lick, stylized phrase ... a predetermined and memorized picking pattern... as compared to what your picking style method is based on.
Rest stroke picking has accents, that's pretty much the point, right, to have strong full accented attacks.
I use rest and free stroke picking both all the time... to create phrasing, accents, articulations... get loud. But when I'm reading a line with a sax , tpt. or piano... I have a reference, and that reference REPEATS. There is a basic picking pattern with non accents as a reference. I can make changes to that system to create different relationships...
If you get a 16 bar single line thrown in front of you to read with a horn section... with typical expressions, dynamics, accents and slurs... your saying you would use rest stroke picking.
Your playing a fast 16th note improve over changes, not licks or memorized solos etc...your interacting with the band... generally letting your picking be determined by where your pick rests...might not cover very well.
But maybe you can make it happen... Would dig seeing an example from you.
I've watched Benson since he was young... when be burns... he alternate picks... he uses rest strokes and other techniques for effect, expression and articulations.
But again would dig seeing how you incorporate rest stroke picking as your reference system and how you make that system repeat.
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Hey Reg - I understand completely what you're saying about alternate picking being great at setting up accents and articulation. I think McLaughlin is the best I've ever heard at controlling which notes in a 16th note packed phrase receive the most emphasis when he plays acoustically with his Shakti group. His right hand is almost like a drum in it's ability to emphasize certain notes and alter the rhythmic pattern. Originally Posted by Reg
That being said, you are wrong about Benson. I've posted on multiple threads in RMMJG and other sites where this comes up. I don't know if you remember Jack Zucker (fabulous alt picking player), but we had a conversation about this some time ago which brought in some experts who had studied with Rodney Jones and Henry Johnson. All the Benson disciples say that he uses what basically amounts to gypsy picking with a few alterations. Every downstroke he plays when he's burning is a rest stroke. Jody Fisher even talked about this after he sat down and played with Benson for one of those workshop live sessions. Personally, I think that's why Bireli Lagrene was able to so quickly switch from predominantly Django style playing to Benson style (that and his freakish abilities). The styles are very similar.
Again, I understand that there are different benefits to each style, and I get what you're saying about alt picking. You clearly have very different demands on you than someone like Montgomery or Benson who, as a band leader, can control the demands of the playing situation. Like you, I've actually found it easier to sight-read with alt picking for some reason (although I'm sure I'm not nearly as good at it as you since I rarely am in reading situations).
But, I will say that I've seen Benson say in interviews that if you want to get your phrasing and articulation together so that it sounds "jazzy", you should first play the phrase with your thumb then figure out how to adapt to the pick. What he's talking about is doing the rest-stroke picking thing with some free upstrokes when there are consecutive notes on a single string.
That being said, I've also heard Benson complain that his picking is weird and that he can't skip strings well. He actually advocates that people learn how to pick like Hank Garland, so there you go
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Hey ecj... thanks for making my point... I don't believe there are many guitarist who have the natural abilities of Benson... he's self basically self taught and still almost naturally alternates, check out his soloing on take five when he's not playing pre-memorized licks... where he's stretching a little... Like you said his string skipping abilities are a little sloppy, but he's still basically alternates when he plays steady 16ths. When he doesn't ... it's for a reason.
yea I remember Jack... great player and teacher. I always really dug his posts and vids...But his picking always broke down when the tempos were up. And as I remember his arm became stiff and also contributed to the break down.
Are we talking about pre-determined, basically memorizing, as in the classical tradition... or are we talking about an actual picking system that repeats... usable as a reference in any situation.
Like I was saying... show me an example of your system, you can basically check out any of my videos... there all done on the spot... no rehearsal... and I use alternating as a reference... my default system.
I said from the beginning there are other systems... but most guitarist don't have one and that's one of the reasons there technique breaks down when tempos get up and especially when playing music they're not familiar with.
Here's a Benson vid...
Last edited by Franklin52; 12-08-2012 at 04:34 PM. Reason: Fixed youtube tags
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Yeah Reg thats what I was wondering...
could I add-on alt to my normal picking method for 8th notes,
(which I like the sound of and want to keep on)
I just wanna graft on a few 16th note runs using alt picking
do you reckon this is do-able Reg ?
or would I have to use alt as my normal for 8th note stuff , tunes etc
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Reg - I'm not sure what you are meaning when you say "alternate picking". I've heard from Henry Johnson and Rodney Jones via forum posts and interviews that Benson is a guy who uses rest downstrokes on every string change like Joe Pass, Django, Charlie Christian, and Wes. He uses upstrokes when he's playing consecutive notes on the same string.
Here's a quick vid showing what I'm doing:
Keep in mind that I don't consider myself a good technician as a player, and most of the reason that I'm exploring and learning this stuff is to try to overcome limitations. For people who can play comfortably and without tension using standard alt-picking, more power to them. I've found that the rest-stroke thing (which is really the traditional jazz guitar method) is easier to learn and use personally and highly advocate that anyone who is struggling with technique explore it.
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Sure... anything is doable. Most players do just that. I think of my reference or default picking system as how I pick with no accents. I can accent with simply picking harder, softer, short etc... or I can change picking pattern to imply how the phrase is notated or how I want to phrase. Originally Posted by pingu
Most players do just what I think you mean... you have standard phrasings with pre planned picking patterns... you've internalized those, they're part of your language. But many times your not playing music of melodic phrases that you already have internalized.
Generally at some point... usually faster tempos or complex harmony... you just pick... when your system has holes... so will your playing.
Anyway... just as you have what ever pre memorized picking patterns you already use, generally you need to practice enough alternate picking studies to have that pattern, alternate, become internalized.
Memorized... which becomes very relaxed and effortless, very easy to develop speed... which while is not the goal... generally will make what ever your goal is much easier to achieve.
Reg
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Hey ecj...
Thanks for vid.
So watching your vid... anything is doable slow, and in repetition... We all pick rest down stroke... when we can or when the tempo is slow enough. The string which is the rest or stop of the down stroke is basically a training wheel... a physical reference. We don't need to watch...but to get speed up you need less movement... 8ths or triplets at 250 and above aren't going to happen.
Alternate picking is simply down up pick motion. You don't need all that movement for down up or alternate picking. But that movement does have a sound and feel... if you choose to use. You also don't need that much pick showing... I even use my first finger and thumb as guides sometimes... rather that resting on string with pick, use finger or thumb as reference for location. Shorten up picking stroke, again training wheel type of thing... but works.
Did you notice how you picked from the arm when you tried to speed up what you call alternate picking, tightened up, the arm, wrist and hand became one piece.
So is the system... I don't want to put words into your mouth...
*start with down stroke(s) to play a note, two notes or phrase and when changing strings, either up or down depending on location of string. Same with multiple string leaps?
Same with arps.
And alternate direction of picking otherwise?
You ever practice the 1234 finger exercises, on single strings, then on multiple strings up and down
1234
1342
1423
etc...
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My emphases above... Originally Posted by Reg
I think what Reg is saying is that we need a Methodical Way of Picking -- whether it's Gypsy or Alternate (a la Leavitt) - or whatever, so that we KNOW, without any real conscious thought, whether we're to play and up or down stroke. Use that method as a jumping-off point, and as something we can return to when we get lost, or need to regain our bearings, or get too far "out"....
"Alternate picking" has come to mean: pick down on the down beats, up on the up beats. This is the method I use, too - and although it isn't perfect, it at least gives you a grounding that is fairly predictable. It's home base. Gypsy picking would work just as well. Strict Bruno picking would work -- anything that doesn't vary.
Once we have one of these systems as second nature, we can deviate and do sweeps, rakes, a rapid series of downs, rests, etc., and never get lost, because returning to the system brings us back to familiarity in our picking, to knowing just where we are. And from there, we can deviate again if we need/want to.
I think this is close.
kj
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I've actually gotten pretty comfortable up to 280-290ish using this method. I'll do a quick vid in "fast motion" tomorrow if you want to see it. You could also go check out the thread in the announcements forum from JC Stylles (sp?) who was advocating the same method. Originally Posted by Reg
I know my arm tenses up bad when doing the "standard alternate picking method". I've tried to years to not do that, and I just can't. When I accepted that and moved onto trying the rest-stroke style things opened up.
I know you're a big advocate of alt-picking, and it certainly seems to be working for you. But rest-strokes are not training wheels for a lot of great players, they're part of the foundation. Again, Joe Pass, Wes Montgomery, and Django Reinhardt, and all of their disciples, use rest-strokes no matter how fast they're playing. I can't really think of a technical limitation that Joe Pass ran into in a jazz setting.
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Alternate picking is how I learned and I might make some changes (sweeps, Bruno's approach) but they will be BASED on what is now second nature to me.
Having said that, I play some heads with all (or mostly) downstrokes becuase they sound better to me that way. But that's not improv; that's just doing what works in a particular situation.
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OK... I read through the JC Styles thread thread in announcements... that was painful.
So I never saw any explanation of the actual picking technique, was what I described before as the guidelines of the method close.
When I watched JC pick... he appears to use picking for accents and phrasing. And when he played longer more up tempo lines he usually went to straight alternate picking... very little rest stops on strings.
Most of his rest stop technique... sounds and looks to be rhythmically derived. To create articulations, you use a pre-organized picking pattern to create a rhythmic feel and use that as a reference to create and develop relationships.
I dig his playing, not so much harmonically but great player.
Lots of BS about how to hold the pick... normal, but nothing about organized method of picking technique... the secrets of how to develop incredible all around technique without having to put in the time to develop either memorization or using a system and applications.
Sure ecj, would dig hearing and seeing you play through some changes at 280... not memorized licks... blowing over changes, pretty much what we do when we play Jazz.
Thanks RegLast edited by Reg; 12-10-2012 at 11:08 AM.
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Yeah, a weird thread, but the guy is an advocate of the method that I'm trying to learn. He's a great player, too. Originally Posted by Reg
I'm not there yet with being able to burn over changes at tempos that hot. I've never been a very good technical player, so I'm encouraged that over the last few months I'm starting to have some progress. My scales, exercises, and patterns are topping out at 280.
Thanks for the tip on choking up on the pick. I tried it out today, and it definitely helped. I've been frustrated for so long with the arm tension I get when I alternate pick, and watching your videos you look so loose and relaxed. I can do that on a single string (with the 1234 kind of exercises), but I've never been able to figure out the motion where you cross strings on an upstroke ascending or a downstroke descending. I always lock up and get really tense.
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what does it mean, choking up on the pick?
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I think they mean gripping it very close to the tip, not letting it rock, holding it "close and firm"... I could be wrong, but I think this is it. Originally Posted by Vladan
Not to complicate matters unduly, but a lot of players who play real hard, loud (acoustic, for example) styles -- they go the opposite way; so I think it's safe to say it depends on how you play, and on what kind of stuff you're playing. I don't believe the Gypsy pickers are really "choking up." The Benson guys probably are, though.
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This. Originally Posted by Kojo27
Rodney Jones demos doing it both ways with Benson picking in this vid:
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Yea... flat pickin, the pick rebound becomes part of the motion, usually flat pick attack.
I use lighter pick, expose more pick, position pick much more flat, parallel with strings and much more upright hand and pick when I play bluegrass type of gigs... and of course use my Tele, sometimes my 1940 epi. box.
Cool to see Rodney pick... still has difficulty with multiple string skips, looks like it's from getting to much pick angle from strong down strokes.
I sure dig his feel.
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