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I am coming back to the guitar after almost 10 years away. I have been around the instrument as a jazz player for almost 25 years.
The biggest challenge coming back is what, I believe, drove me away the first time. That inconsistent right hand technique that stems from trying to convert to double picking from a problem free economy picking life. Thanks a bunch John Petrucci.
At what point in time do you bite the bullet with time and effort to reprogram yourself to focus on a style of picking? To truly commit to economy picking would mean a great deal of work to focus on odd/even string patterns etc etc. But enough is enough, right?
Anyone else have experience with this?
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10-04-2012 01:17 PM
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Who says you have to do it one way?
Also, I'm not familiar with the term "double picking." Do you mean alternate picking?
A lot of different jazz guitarists take different approaches to the right hand. Rest stroke, alternate, economy, hybird, fingerstyle, etc.
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Work out some etude style exercises where you do the same picking every time, whether it's alt, eco, or hybrid. The hardest phase is that uncomfortable year or 3 where the right hand is unsure how it wants to pick some tricky sections, but you gotta train yourself into the habit of consistency, otherwise you will always falter. imho.....
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Yes sir, alternate. Same thing.
And I don't know that anyone says you have to do it one way. Just seems that fostering two is causing conflicts. Perhaps it is just a time and deligence thing. But it is not looking that way.
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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The problem with an etude is that, though you may master the exercise in that situation, the first time something comes up in improv or some atypical approach, you falter. But I get what you are saying.
Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Different phrases call for different approaches, I think that's undeniable. I use alternate for some, economy for some, slurs plenty of notes... Originally Posted by Echoshill
I try to exploit my strengths but still work on my weaknesses.
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My biggest challenge has always been right hand technique, or rather, inconsistency with it. I've tried everything I know to try and am now resting the pick on my SECOND finger instead of the index when I play. (I never heard of anyone switching TO this approach, and I may give it up for Lent next year, but for now, that's where I'm at.)
I agree with those who say different kinds of phrases call for different picking approaches.
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Mark, you're in good company. George Barnes held his pick with his thumb and second finger. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Echoshill, picking should be a skill that is flexible enough to handle any situation. Speaking as someone who spent years as an alternate picker, I finally came to the realisation that many of things that I wanted to do could not be done with alternate picking alone. So I buckled down to the task of learning the things that I had to do in order to play the way I wanted to such as sweeps and rest strokes and playing eighth notes with all downstrokes.
This was something I chose to do after spending 20 years as a working musician. It helps if you enjoy practicing and see it a something pleasant rather than task to be done grudgingly. As I began to gain some facility with my new skills, I would close my eyes and practice slowly, listening to each note as though I were meditating. I placed no time constraint on myself, I simply did the work and let it come in its own time and surprisingly it came much quicker than I expected.
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Thanks, Monk. I didn't know that. It's a curious change to make. It's pretty comfortable though the first thing I noticed is that I generate much less volume. I never thought that I played loud before---I practice without plugging into my Polytone---but I'm much quieter this way. I'll have to work at dynamics, I guess, but I notice the attack is cleaner. This has always been my Achilles' heel: no matter how I hold the pick, it seems to move around on me and the result is an inconsistent attack. Maybe I'll bring back Slow Jazz.... Originally Posted by monk
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Barnes used thumb/finger pressure as a volume control. When you squeeze the pick the volume increases, when you relax it lessens. Sorry to give you one more thing to have to think about. I'll dig into my archives for his guitar method and articles that might shed some light on the subject and get back to you. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
I would also suggest that you practice with the amp as much as possible. Wes Montgomery always did. An electric guitar and amp are the complete instrument. If you only practice with half the instrument you may find youself digging in more with the pick than is necessary in a playing situation. Practicing with the amp, even at low volume, levels the field and allows you to become more consistent in your execution.
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I would also suggest that you practice with the amp as much as possible. Wes Montgomery always did. An electric guitar and amp are the complete instrument. If you only practice with half the instrument you may find youself digging in more with the pick than is necessary in a playing situation. Practicing with the amp, even at low volume, levels the field and allows you to become more consistent in your execution.[/quote]
i thought he always practiced unplugged so as not to make much noise, which led to thumb style as it was quieter. or maybe he only did in his early days?
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i thought he always practiced unplugged so as not to make much noise, which led to thumb style as it was quieter. or maybe he only did in his early days?
No, he always practiced with the guitar and amp. After complaints from his family about the racket, he gave up using a pick and started using his thumb.
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Mark,
Here is a scan of page 22 from The George Barnes Modern Guitar Method (1941).
Some of the text got chopped in the scanner so I've reproduced it.
The difference between an amplified and an acoustical guitar is too often forgotten in reference to picking.
In an acoustical guitar, the pick is gripped firmly between the forefinger and thumb. all dynamics of sound and motion the (pick being controlled by the wrist and arm).
However in an amplified instrument, the force needed to produce a tone is many times less. Therefore,the pick should be gripped comparitively loosely and should be held with three fingers, 1st, 2nd and thumb. In this way the speed and dynamics are controlled by pressure of the fingers, and the wrist.
Using this grip more intimate control of dynamics may be had by the pressure of the thumb against the 1st and 2nd fingers. (Held loosely, normally, the volume automatically increases with added thumb pressure.)
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When I read this, it struck me how rarely I've played through an amp, and me in my 50s! I think I went about ten years without having one at all---I was recording a lot in a 4-track then and I had some effects I could plug into and hear through headphones. The one I have now, a Polytone, I've had for over ten years and I doubt I've turned it on ten times. It's mainly a low table on which I stack sheet music! I started on an acoustic and am fine with the un-amplified sound of my guitar. Originally Posted by monk
I grant your point, though. I think it is something that I should do.
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For me, right hand technique has never seemed to be plagued by which type or style of picking technique to employ . . . until I started thinking about . . . which type or style of picking technique I should employ. When I went back to not thinking about it . . . problem resolved. I played as it felt most natural to do. Sometime that's completely alternating, sometimes it's combining economy and alt . . . many times . . . almost always in includes hammer ons and pull offs. It totally depends upon what I'm reading or studying or improv'ing. For example, if I'm reading out of Bugs Bower clarinet etudes for two . . . it always had to be completely alternating. Same when I first started to learn to read out of Roger Fileberto's study books.
The bigger problem for me with right hand technique, was correcting something that two of my former teachers insisted upon . . and as a result of me trying to comply and adapt . . it has been a real challenge breaking away from. That is playing with my right hand completely closed, whether playing single note runs, improvising or comping. Both Al Faraldi and Vinnie Corrao insisted upon it. Now, while I'm far more comfortable holding the pick between my thumb and index finger and leaving the other 3 digits open . . . my speed when picking is better with my hand fully closed, but my chording or comping is best when open. I find I'm far less likely to hammer on or pull off with my hand fully closed ... which is more in line with a jazz style of playing. But when I attempt to play chords with my hand fully closed . . I have zero control over touch. It seems every chord is banged, instead of finessed. I'm still trying to work through that. I'm gravitating towards never using the hand fully closed approach.
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Monk,thanks for posting that. Is it safe to say after 70 years, George's pick grip hasn't caught on??? I gave it a try, though I use a smaller pick, so I'm not sure it's a fair test. (I'm not going back to a regular sized one for anything, either.) I'll try it again. Do you use that grip? Does anyone else here use it? I'd like to hear from anyone who does. Originally Posted by monk
I think he's right about a loose grip being okay because you don't have to generate volume with the pick stroke on an electric guitar.
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Mark, Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
I use a fairly conventional thumb & index grip. I've tried Barnes' grip and it would take a lot of time for me to become comfortable with it. It won't work with anything smaller than a standard Fender 351 pick and I currently use a smaller plectrum myself. I posted this only as an historic factoid in response to your post about switching your pick grip. I am comfortable with my own grip but I did adopt Barnes' tip for varying volume by increasing or decreasing the thumb pressure.
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Gotcha. Since starting with a Jazz III some years ago, I doubt I'll ever use a Fender 351 sized pick again. They feel clunky, unwieldy. How much thumb pressure are you talking about? Does applying it change the flex (if any) in your thumb joint? Originally Posted by monk
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Not much pressure. According to his book, Barnes preferred flat wound light gauge (I'm assuming .012 for first string) with an unwound third string. Most of the players who didn't make the transition from acoustic to electric successfully were the one who continued to use a heavy right hand. Let the amp do its job and lighten up with the pick. This expands the range of available dynamics. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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I insist that practicing without an amp these last 3 years has definitely helped my technique and my sound. And yes, you do play louder, and that's part of the reason why it's better! But then, I like loud pickers like Django and Benson, they sound more dynamic and exciting. I know it's the norm, but I dislike the dull tone and light handed attack that most jazz guitarists have (except Wes) which usually sounds kinda anaemic to me. I suspect that is the reason Jazz guitar is not popular with even most Jazz lovers, we tend to sound one dimensional, dynamically, and often it's because we let the amp do much of the work.
Face it, if we're used to an amp, we let the amp dictate our attack, limiting our natural expressive range. This is why electric players often sound dull and lifeless on acoustic. But if you try to sound as musical as possible without an amp, and simply add an amp as an adjunct to your natural expression, you are forced to tailor the amp setting to reflect your "acoustic" attack. The result is very different!
Oh, and I know that no-one here agrees with this (I think I've brought this up before), so I'm not trying to convince anyone to change anything, just putting it out there that there may be some of us that don't agree that amp practice is a must....
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I agree that this is the single most powerful exercise that can tidy up sloppiness in picking. It is also the most boring. Originally Posted by BARTS
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Sounds great, and correct . . theoretically. But, when you're blowing, that theory tends to go out the window in a damn hurry. If you're going to be doing single 1/8th note runs in a very staccato-ish (Pat Martino) fashion, then yeah . . what you're saying is relavent. However, when you're just blowing . . . natural tendencies *tend* to take control. It also depends upon where you are in your phrase. Do you intend to breath after the down stroke of the d string? What are your intentions after playing the note on the g string. Are you in the process of sweeping up or down? Will you be hammering on or pulling off?? Originally Posted by BARTS
Way too many variables. Also, way too many thoughts to process. When you're blowing, you need to be thinking about your lines, harmonically and fingering wise, you need to be counting measures, think about song form, you need to be defining dynamics . . etc.. With all of that shit going on . . your picking just seems to go on auto pilot and your natural tendencies just take over. At least, that's how it is with me. I just get into a comfort zone. I just don't care and for the most part I'm relatively unaware if I've hit, or will hit with an up stroke or a down stroke. Speaking of that comfort zone . . try taking a phrase, a line that you're very used to playing . . and if you normally start that phrase on a down stroke, just reverse that and start it on an up stroke. See what happens.
And, also . . . speaking of being unaware . . . I once watched an interview with George Benson on you tube, where George was talking about his much heralded picking technique. He said the following . . verbatum . . "I was talking with Kenny Burrell one day and he asked me if I actually pick every note. I said to him . . heck man . .I don't know".
Way back in the day, when I was silly enough to be practicing scales and modes 90 minutes a day . . . I would run a diatonic scale starting on the 6th string, in all for fingerings . . all the way up then all the way down the fret board, beginning each time on the down stroke. Then, I would do it all over again, this time starting each scale on the up stroke. DROVE ME NUTS!!!!
Also, how often will you be playing 1/16th note runs at 200 bpm that you would be concerned about having the "double picking" slow you down? Maybe Cherokee??? LOLOLLast edited by Patrick2; 10-13-2012 at 11:02 PM.
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Great story. Reminds me the short-story writing genius Flannery O'Connor, who was once asked how she handled shifts of point-of-view in her stories. She said she never thought about it; the stories just came out that way. We all have some things that we do "naturally." The problem is learning to do (or improve how you do) something you do poorly. It's trial and error to find something that works for you without creating a problem elsewhere. And that's the killer---it's hard to change 'just one thing'; every change seems to touch on several aspects of one's playing. Originally Posted by Patrick2
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I've mentioned hereabouts that in the ten years I've had my Polytone, I've turned it on no more than a dozen times. I know the argument that an electric guitar is only half your arsenal and the amp is the other half, so you have to practice with both. I won't argue that that is wrong but I don't do it. I also won't argue that it has improved my technique, though my technique has gotten better for all the focused playing over those years. I just don't plug in to practice. Heck, I'm not deaf and I practice alone, so volume isn't an issue. I also like being able to sing along (when the mood strikes) without needing a mic. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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I'm using .011s now (TI Swing). You know, I'm getting somewhere with a modified Barnes grip. I use a small, super-thick pick, and it seems like I'm holding it BETWEEN the first two fingers. It allows for the most straight up and down stroke I've ever managed. (My picking has never been as much of a problem as my tendency to either rotate my hand or rotate the pick so the angle of attack changes. This way of holding the pick seems to solve both problems. It's a softer attack, which keeps the pick from 'turning on me,' and like I said, it keeps my picking motion consistent across all string pairs. In a week or so--maybe first of the month--I'll make a video so you can see what I'm talking about. Originally Posted by monk
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