Who has switched to Benson picking?

Nuff Said · 05-26-2011, 05:53 AM

Sherly Bailey seems to use mostly Benson type picking.

Here's a great track:

Nuff

**McCap** · 05-26-2011, 06:06 AM

After watching and liking a lot of gospel players, who all seem to hold the pick the benson way I tried it myself and I definitely liked the tone. I also could instantly feel, that with practice I would get a more relaxed groovier feeling.

I didn' have problems muting, as I still didn't float my palm.

I will work on it some more as it definitely gave me a tone that I like for certain things.

**Johnny Arthur** · 05-27-2011, 04:55 PM

I should have asked GB when I met him in Maui years ago, are you guys talking about his pick angle? I have adopted to Jorge Strunz pick angle which is angeled up for seamless fluency, angeled down for dynamics and phrasing. I believe he told me once during a lesson, him and GB and Santana angeled there pick up.

Best,

**AlohaJoe** · 06-02-2011, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

This Hal Galper lesson really makes sense to me with problems like picking.

Excellent! Thanks for posting that!

**Shadow of the Sun** · 06-03-2011, 10:34 AM

I find that holding the wrist below the strings is somewhat uncomfortable for me, so I tend to hold it parallel to 'em- thumb is still in general Benson position, and the pick is still angled, but it's a bit more comfy.

**jzucker** · 06-03-2011, 10:37 AM

I think a little goes a long way

**jzucker** · 06-03-2011, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Richb

My thoughts are that changing a technique never makes a musician play better.

So why did you switch from a pick to fingers and then to a thumbpick and then to a thumbpick and 4 fingerpicks and then back to a pick and now back to a thumbpick?

**Sandor** · 06-03-2011, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

So why did you switch from a pick to fingers and then to a thumbpick and then to a thumbpick and 4 fingerpicks and then back to a pick and now back to a thumbpick?

That's probably the process that led to his conclusion.

**add4** · 06-03-2011, 06:59 PM

i never really understood the description of the benson picking on the site that everyone keeps posting as a reference (tuck and patty?)
could someone try to explain it in his own words?
From what i gathered, the wrist it held lower than in traditional picking so the forearm is 'parallel' to the strings angle.
then the thumb points up when the pick is held. the pick is not parallel to the strings. to balance that, the last (or last two) fingers can be held parallel to the strings too.
I think i understood the hand position correctly, but i don't get the 'rotation' thing.
thanks in advance.

**jzucker** · 06-03-2011, 10:54 PM

The tuck article makes it way more complicated than it really is. Just look on youtube for Dan Wilson, Rodney Jones or George Benson.

Here's a page with some photos.

bensonpicking - jmgras

**add4** · 06-04-2011, 03:00 AM

Thanks, that really helped! that's the secret adam rogers position that seems so effortless

when you know what notes to pick to sound hip, and already have a killer technique

**jzucker** · 06-05-2011, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by Richb

I switched because I was looking for a better way to get out the sounds I hear...Changing techniques showed me more clearly than ANYTHING that tech's may change but the musician still "sounds" the same...All the important aspects like taste, phrasing, pacing, arc, originality have nothing to do w/ technique...

lots of great players have switched to different techniques with positive results. Rodney Jones, Henry Johnson, Sheryl Bailey, Paul Bollenback for starters. Just because something didn't work for you doesn't make it a universal truth. This is the issue I think you are constantly dealing with when you make universal truth statements like when you say negative stuff about Malone, farlow, raney, etc.

Don't forget that only a few years ago, you thought metheny couldn't play and now you love metheny.

It seems that truth is a someone fluid concept...

**Kojo27** · 06-06-2011, 01:53 AM

Originally Posted by Richb

My thoughts are that changing a technique never makes a musician play better. A musician will still play the same as they did w/ a previous technique, the only thing that will have changed will be maybe the tone/chops will change a bit....But they will still be stuck w/ the same musician upstairs who runs proceedings...

If somebody can't phrase, or can't play solos that have an arc, or can't play melodically - ie the truly important things about playing music - then simply changing techniques does nothing for these things - it will just maybe allow them to keep doing the same things a bit faster or w/ a slightly different tone....

100% agree. You could amputate a great guitarist's picking-hand thumb, up to the hand, and he'd still find some way to play great guitar, if he wanted to. Maybe not the SAME stuff as before, but just as good. ("It ain't the fiddle, but the fiddler, that makes the people dance.")

And what the guy is Jonny Pac's posted video said. Yep.

**jzucker** · 06-06-2011, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by Kojo27

100% agree. You could amputate a great guitarist's picking-hand thumb, up to the hand, and he'd still find some way to play great guitar, if he wanted to. Maybe not the SAME stuff as before, but just as good. ("It ain't the fiddle, but the fiddler, that makes the people dance.")

That's just the point. When you change your technique as Rodney Jones, Sheryl Bailey and Henry Johnson did, it allows you to get out the things you are hearing in your head which you may not have been able to articulate before. Are you familiar with them? All 3 have changed to benson picking and all 3 have said that it's allowed them to articulate things that they never could otherwise. It changes the tone and the attack of the notes. How could it not effect the music you play?

**jzucker** · 06-06-2011, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by Richb

Jack, I just went over to RMMGJ, and did a search for any of my posts regarding Metheny. My memory of my posts from way back when is not that clear.....I saw one (of MANY) from 2003 (!) where I mention Metheny is a genius w/ great time.

you said it in a several private conversations with me as well as on tgp. You've posted several things on here and tgp based on private conversations we've had so I figured you wouldn't mind. Anyway, take this offline if you want to continue this as it has nothing to do with the thread. I'll delete my original thread if you want me to.

**Sandor** · 06-06-2011, 11:08 AM

Its funny to see jack calling someone out for switching sides on an issue when he does the same thing. For example: citing Jimmy Bruno as an example of someone who doesn't swing when the issue is economy pickng(jack uses mostly alt), and citing him as soemone who DOES when the issue is elbow picking(a technique jack uses).

**jzucker** · 06-06-2011, 11:37 AM

i never said Jimmy doesn't swing. I think what I said was that playing strictly economy picking is not the best way to play with a swing feel but plenty of folks use economy picking and get a swing feel so there is no correct answer here. That guy who's video richard posted earlier swings well and he plays economy picking quite a bit.

And the reason I called richard out is that he's freely admitted both privately and publicly that he sees these forums as a game and finds it humorous to instigate flame wars and to "topple" name players who he doesn't think are worthy of praise. I may not always have the best behavior but I think I put out a ton of free advice, reviews and lesson videos so whatever...

**jzucker** · 06-06-2011, 01:18 PM

P.S.

Can we get back to benson picking ?

**Kojo27** · 06-06-2011, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

That's just the point. When you change your technique as Rodney Jones, Sheryl Bailey and Henry Johnson did, it allows you to get out the things you are hearing in your head which you may not have been able to articulate before. Are you familiar with them? All 3 have changed to benson picking and all 3 have said that it's allowed them to articulate things that they never could otherwise. It changes the tone and the attack of the notes. How could it not effect the music you play?

I have to agree. And the more drastic the change-in-technique, the more drastic will be the change in the music you produce. However (and I think this is what Rich is saying) the person's *musicianship* won't change. That requires a cognitive/intuitional sort of change. Watch again the Hal Galper video a page or so back, in this thread. A change in picking technique won't give most people *much* of a longer _musical_ stride.

But yes, certainly a change in ANY technical part of playing an instrument can allow access to *technical* stuff that was out of reach before. Getting a better tone is making better music, surely. If Jones, Bailey, and Johnson claim they can pull off stuff now that they couldn't before, I won't deny it. But still -- in a very real sense -- they aren't better musicians because of the change, are they? Jeez, it's a hard call. Maybe the greater picking facility lets them discover, during practice and performance, new sounds, and these feed the brain and ultimately they DO improve as musicians. Heck, I don't know! It's a hell of a question.

**jzucker** · 06-06-2011, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by Richb

Yes I do find the forums amusing - and sometimes I write a deliberately inflammatory post, but in all honesty, you would think the whole world has ground to a halt because I wrote that I didn't care for so an so's music.

But Richard, you did more than that. You posted in Jon Raney's thread and said something to the effect that his dad didn't swing or had bad time. It may not have been against the law but it sure wasn't a very nice thing to do. Especially, because his father is no longer around to defend himself...

Anyway, let's quite the personal jabber and discuss the topic at hand. I'm not even sure why you feel the need to weigh on the "who's switched to benson picking" thread if you haven't switched to benson picking...Just to cause trouble IMO...Like Tag jumping into the "Who loves Pat Metheny" thread to say that Pat is a fusion player. Just sayin...

**Double 07** · 06-06-2011, 09:29 PM

Hey guys I wasn't trying to hijack the thread or anything. Just happened to notice the similarity between Benson and Metheny's picking while watching that video I posted. Benson, Metheny, and Wes that's like the supreme trinity of jazz gutar for me so I posted it. Wasn't tryna hijack the thread. Hope it didn't come off that way.

**jzucker** · 06-06-2011, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by Double 07

Hey guys I wasn't trying to hijack the thread or anything. Just happened to notice the similarity between Benson and Metheny's picking while watching that video I posted. Benson, Metheny, and Wes that's like the supreme trinity of jazz gutar for me so I posted it. Wasn't tryna hijack the thread. Hope it didn't come off that way.

i didn't think you were hijacking. I was referring to the personal insults.

**Spirit59** · 06-07-2011, 01:22 AM

More freaking SPAM.

You know if SPAMers ended up causing the sites they're promoting to get DDoSed to hell they might think twice about posting their crap....

**mattymel** · 06-30-2011, 04:41 AM

Benson to me is the ultimate technician. amongst other things...

but i cant think of anyone that seems to have the control he has. ive seen him playing some of the fastest lines i have ever heard while playing so quiet it was like a whisper. never seen anyone else do that on guitar, or really any instrument for that matter. glenn gould maybe...

while i feel there is something to his angles and whatnot, without getting too overly analytical you can start to get a touch of his articulation by using a sweep-like approach. what i feel is vastly more important here would be to focus on his IMPECCABLE time.

recently i have been transcribing alot of Freddie Hubbard. it occurred to me as i was doing it how much it sounded like Benson. its just THEIR TIME!

slowing down guys to half speed and listening if they are swinging is always the true test. Benson is seriously probably the swingingest dude ever. check him out. hes like a swing machine gun...

**flashjazzcat** · 07-04-2011, 09:34 AM

I looked into the Benson technique again recently and actually spent a few weeks trying to slavishly emulate it (this was after I got a ticking off from someone for anchoring my hand to the pickguard with my pinky), but all I ended up with was tension, discomfort and shoulder pain. So last week I tried something different: my usual technique, but playing a little lower down (i.e. from "under" the strings) and holding the pick at the Benson angle-of-attack (the altered posture is the only way I could accomplish the latter, not having a double-jointed thumb). The result is that I get a warmer tone and less string resistance without the overhead of completely ruining my existing technique.