Vintage German archtop with a wide nut

[IbanezAS100]

Hello folks, I know there are a few threads about vintage German guitars but this is specifically about nut width. I've been a fan of these for a while but the sometimes skinny necks put me off-I had a lovely Hofner that I sold as the neck was on the smaller side. I imagine neck dimensions are all over the place but if there are makers that favoured wider necks it'd be helpful to know, e.g. Schlaggitarren mentions that Rodebald Hoyer guitars often had a wider nut Schlaggitarren.de – Hersteller). I am looking for a primarily acoustic archtop with a minimum 1 3/4''/45mm nut width-a generous profile would be a bonus.

There are many members with a wealth of experience on vintage German guitars so hopefully someone will know more. Thanks

[Hammertone]

You are correct that nut widths on the archtops from many German builders are all over the map. In addition to Rod. Hoyer archtops, many Roger archtops have generous nut widths. Here are pix of a few typical Roger archtops with wide nuts and big necks - I'll measure the nut widths on these and a few more I have stacked around here somewhere.

1. Roger Junior #2958, built for Boosey & Hawkes / UK market. At some point, they requested a more American-style guitar, and got one with American-style arching (no German carve), added neck and headstock binding, solid pressed spruce top, pressed back (either laminated or solid maple).

-nut width: 1.775" | 45.08mm
-neck width at 12th fret: 2.02" | 51.3mm
-neck depth at 1st fret: .94" | 23.88mm
-neck depth at 9th fret: .984" | 25mm
-neck profile: rounded "C" shape
Other dimensions (common to most Mittenwald/post Mittenwald Roger guitars):
-scale length: 24 3/4" | 629mm
-body width: 17" | 43.18cm
-body length: 21" | 53.34cm
Rim depth does vary. This one:
-rim depth: 3 1/8" | 7.938cm

2. Roger Junior #3236, typical Junior features, German carve solid spruce top, German carve solid maple back.

-nut width: 1.713" | 43.5mm
-neck width at 12th fret: 1.958" | 49.73mm
-neck depth at 1st fret: 1" | 25.4mm
-neck depth at 9th fret: 1.01" | 25.66mm
-neck profile: rounded "C" shape
Other dimensions (common to most Mittenwald/post Mittenwald Roger guitars):
-scale length: 24 3/4" | 629mm
-body width: 17" | 43.18cm
-body length: 21" | 53.34cm
Rim depth does vary. This one is deep:
-rim depth: 3 1/2" | 8.89cm

3. Roger Junior / Standard. No label. From the Tats Osiha Collection. Probably assembled from parts, because it has a Junior neck attached to a Standard body, and does not have a Roger bridge or tailpiece.

-nut width: 1.68" | 42.67mm
-neck width at 12th fret: 1.97" | 50mm
-neck depth at 1st fret: 1.02" | 25.9mm
-neck depth at 9th fret: 1.02" | 25.9mm
-neck profile: pronounced "D" shape
Other dimensions (common to most Mittenwald/post Mittenwald Roger guitars):
-scale length: 24 3/4" | 629mm
-body width: just under 17", at 16 7/8" | 42.86cm
-body length: just under 21" | 53.34cm
Rim depth does vary. This one is shallower:
-rim depth: 2 9/10" | 7.36cm

4. Roger Luxus. Well, this one is staying right here.

[IbanezAS100]

@Enlightened Rogue thanks for the detailed post, your Hoyer is lovely and the modifications are similar to what I would do.

@Hammertone yes please to photos of Roger archtops with wide nuts and big necks. I am no longer in the UK so not many opportunities to find one locally. Please let me know what you have and we can discuss further-we have actually communicated in the past via e-mail. Thanks

[IbanezAS100]

Here are pix of a few typical Roger archtops with wide nuts and big necks - I'll measure the nut widths on these and a few more I have stacked around here somewhere.

These are all wonderful, looking forward to checking out the specs. #4 (blonde, pickup, smaller headstock) is ticking all the boxes aesthetically.

[Ol' Fret]

<< I am looking for a primarily acoustic archtop with a minimum 1 3/4''/45mm nut width-a generous profile would be a bonus. >>


Not being an expert (on anything) either I've inspected, played and enjoyed almost half a thousand German vintage archtops; it seems I like boring stuff like physical things as well, measuring with calipers, and so on, and making comparisons.

In short, my recommendation would be: a 1950's "Solist" made by Arnold Hoyer.
These are, IMHO, still extremely underrated "on the market", very well arched and thickness gradated, fully carved guitars; underrated in terms of price and performance. The maple backs are often not or just slightly figured; these were considered to be workhorses, so, fortunate for us, they still have not attracted much international attention so far.
C.16.5" wide bodies, deep sides, the neck widths at the zero fret varying between 44mm and 44.5mm (I measured about 8 examples), a generous though well comfortable profile, scale length 640mm. Just consider that all these German guitars were made more or less by hand in the 1950s, so you have to ask about the respective neck width. Oh, don't rely on the data from commercial and private sellers - I don't know why but quite few of them (and that's an understatement) need new measuring instruments or new glasses!
You can recognize the metal reinforced necks on a Arnold Hoyer Solist on that rhinestone on the headstock, a simple drilled hole above the string spacer into the reinforcement to prove that they used metal. The earliest Solists didn' t have this, and towards the mid 1960s the necks got smaller. The necks were really well made, using also ebony fretboards and two stripes of ebony in the center area.

Not without reason these A. Hoyer Solists were among the choice of professional German guitarists in the 1950s; if you want, the counterparts of the so much more famous laminated American ES-175, but with that "carved" cutting sound spectrum, much more towards the prewar L-5. Set up well, like you would do with comparable carved US guitars, and electrified (really much space for all sorts of floating pickups), they will smoke for more decades to come.

Glassl made Solist-analogous guitars under his own name, later for the Hopf label. Glassl was a true master maker. It was him who originally created the Solist and the larger Special models for A. Hoyer, so his guitars may even sound better (IMHO, they do). Glassl though, didn't care much about making necks himself (my guess is that he never made one single neck by himself), so you find all sorts of necks on Glassl guitars, from Arnold Hoyer to Rudolph Hoyer to Hopf/Framus "ever-straights" to Artur Lang.


Roger necks are not so standardized as some may think. The best playable ones, IMHO, were made by Roger Rossmeisl (probably his master violin maker Olga Adelmann) between 1951 and 1953, though he also used up stock from the Markneukirchen workshop of his father on his guitars. The Roger mix between 1951 and 53 is incredible - there would be a lot to tell and show.
Mittenwald and earlier Neumarkt era Roger necks would win every bar fight - guaranteed! Later Neumarkt examples again get a bit more into the dimensions of earlier 1950s Rogers.
The width of Roger necks oriented towards the L-5 (no zero fret either); so most examples measure between 43mm and 43.5mm at the nut.
Some nice Roger models shown above by Hammertone, though one of the above ones has pressed solid plates (not the typical German carve).
Roger guitars are not for everyone, either you love it or you leave it. They are loud and well-projecting. There were really crucial, although not immediately noticeable subtle differences in the German carve technology and post-processing by hand, so tone-wise more differences than one would expect, given the manufacturing process after 1947.


Rod Hoyer guitar neck widths are really all over the top. Most that I've seen are between 42mm and 43mm, but there are many earlier ones with only 40mm (on really fine fully carved instruments), and some with 44mm or more.


Also still very underrated, IMHO, are the Musima-made Roger knock-offs. German carve, fully solid as well. During the early 1960s, these Musimas became thinline guitars (some with conventional tonebars, others with tonebars integrated into the spruce top; no sustain block). The later models, called Record 17, are really versatile guitars, from swing jazz to slight distorsion. The neck widths of these 17s should be between 44.5 and 45mm; earlier Records sport 42.5 to 43mm. Being made in GDR, the build quality of Musimas is lower compared to Roger, though just one thinline Roger is known to exist (the great Roger Electric 54 models not included; but these are short-scale, slim-neck guitars). Be aware also that the GDR electric circuits were really special and confusing, though their pickups come close to the P-90s sound.
Since you're looking after an acoustic archtop, the Records are rather out of the question.


There were other GDR brands, laminated and fully acoustic models (yes, all that's not new!), delivered without pickup. Great sounding by a master maker, still dead-cheap, c.45mm neck width at the zero fret. The necks are not reinforced, so it's a bit hit or miss. Part of them could demand some TLC outside the usual guitar technician work zone. Hard to find such folks...


Great acoustic guitars according to your specifications are also some instruments, either prewar Schönbach-made or early BRD instruments made by the same makers (after their expulsion). I own several fully carved ones, many unlabeled or rebranded, with neck widths between 45mm and 52mm. Of course, these are comparably rare; too much to extend here.


Then, there is the undisputed king of German archtop guitar making, Artur Lang, the gifted custom maker. My Langs are selected, but all of them range between almost 44mm and 45.5mm neck width at the zero fret. Lang made these when Gibson still made their "pencil" necks, though it is not impossible to get used to 39mm or 40mm. Violin and mandolin players would be shocked about such freeways...


One last remark (I know, I'm pushing the boundaries of the Z generation's attention - sorry!):
Some would be surprised to experience how easy a smaller guitar neck could get the feeling of a wider one - one of many advantages of the zero fret system. Just make a new string spacer for your guitar! Often it is possible, without any disadvantage, to increase the distance between the strings by 0.5mm or more. This can work wonders for sensitive fingers. Maybe the fret ends need to be reworked a bit (60 degree angle); this is popular with most vintage guitars anyway, and is easy to do since there are none of these raised binding pieces on the fret ends, nips (?) or anything like that.

[Hammertone]

The good doctor has provided some useful info above. More from me later as well, specifically regarding nut width, neck size and scale length, but here are a few pix to give you a sense of some of these guitars - a couple of Hoyer Solists, a couple of Langs (very early and very late), a Rod. Hoyer "Broadway" (all from West Germany); and a Roger copy by Karl Keller, and a late Otwin, both from East Germany.

[Hammertone]

Otwin was atypical in the world of East German archtop guitars. Otto Windisch was building archtops in the 1930s (as was Höfner, and Franz Hirsch, for Roger). Otwin was initially more influenced by Epiphone than by Gibson. Fast-forward to the '50s, when the Workers' Paradise was in full bloom, and all the various independent makers and shops were absorbed into state-owned enterprises like Musima, Marma, Migma, and so forth. Otwin was one of the last to be absorbed into that Borg. This is a very late Otwin, exhibiting very little Otwinitude in the body, but unmistakably plenty in the neck. More on all that later. Some more pix of this guitar. Note the hint of German Carve (with almost no recarve), the Stauffer-Legnani bolt-on neck, the finish transition from body to neck, the very Otwinian volute, and more...

[IbanezAS100]

@Ol' Fret, thanks for a very informative post, hopefully this will be useful to others on a similar quest. I would love a Lang but the prices have gone up prohibitively. Thankfully there are many great sounding and cool looking archtops out there.

@Hammertone thanks for the photos and info-I'd be happy with any of those looks wise. Just for reference, one of my favourite necks (that I had custom made and retrofitted to a Reverend) is 1 13/16''/46 mm at the nut with a .87-.97 C profile. Anything close to that would be very tempting, look forward to checking out the specs of the guitars in your collection when you've got the time.

[Hammertone]

...@Hammertone thanks for the photos and info-I'd be happy with any of those looks wise. Just for reference, one of my favourite necks (that I had custom made and retrofitted to a Reverend) is 1 13/16''/46 mm at the nut with a .87-.97 C profile. Anything close to that would be very tempting, look forward to checking out the specs of the guitars in your collection when you've got the time.

I have added various useful specifications above for the first three of the Roger guitars shown.

Mittenwald and later Rogers were standardized with
-24 3/4" scale lengths;
-17" wide / 21" long bodies
-3" - 3 1/2" rim depths.
There is some variation in neck size and shape, as noted.

[IbanezAS100]

I have added various useful specifications above for the first three of the Roger guitars shown.

Mittenwald and later Rogers were standardized with
-24 3/4" scale lengths;
-17" wide / 21" long bodies
-3" - 3 1/2" rim depths.
There is some variation in neck size and shape, as noted.

Thanks Hammertone, we need to talk about Roger No 1. I've tried to PM you but was getting an error message (exceeded private message capacity)-please check. These specs sound great so I'm definitely interested.

'1. Roger Junior #2958, built for Boosey & Hawkes / UK market. At some point, they requested a more American-style guitar, and got one with American-style arching (no German carve), added neck and headstock binding, solid pressed spruce top, pressed back (either laminated or solid maple).

-nut width: 1.775" | 45.08mm
-neck width at 12th fret: 2.02" | 51.3mm
-neck depth at 1st fret: .94" | 23.88mm
-neck depth at 9th fret: .984" | 25mm
-neck profile: rounded "C" shape
Other dimensions (common to most Mittenwald/post Mittenwald Roger guitars):
-scale length: 24 3/4" | 629mm
-body width: 17" | 43.18cm
-body length: 21" | 53.34cm
Rim depth does vary. This one:
-rim depth: 3 1/8" | 7.938cm'

[Hammertone]

PM working now - I deleted a bunch of old stuff.