Brazilian Rosewood and CITES

[garybaldy]

If I want to buy eg. 40s/50s/60s Gibsons from US to UK what do I need to do regarding CITES rules? Does the seller need to provide documentation?
TIA

[jim777]

If your guitar checked out for tortoiseshell, ivory or Brazilian rosewood, you’ll not be able to legally get it in or out of any of the 172 member countries without a permit. And, because these are Appendix I species, you’ll only get a permit if your guitar predates CITES’ application to the species in question. For ivory, the application date is June 1, 1947. Hawksbill turtle was included when CITES first came into effect on July 1, 1975. Brazilian rosewood was added on June 11, 1992.

from: https://www.fretboardjournal.com/features/guitar-lovers-guide-cites-conservation-treaty/#:~:text=If%20your%20guitar%20checked%20out,to%20t he%20species%20in%20question

[bluenote61]

If a guitar with parts of Brazilian Rosewood was built before March 1947 it will be treated as an antique and can be traded and imported. But the date of built needs to be certified with a CITES certificate.

As an example, I've attached an information sheet issued by german authorities for importing musical instruments having parts made of BR. For UK it should be similar.

[ThatRhythmMan]

Those Gibsons won’t have ivory or tortoise shell, and just for reference, ivory should pretty much be considered a no go, no matter the age.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[garybaldy]

Thanks for the replies.
I was on the verge of pulling the trigger on a 52 ES125.
The seller's ad is a little sketchy with only a few pics and saying he doesn't know a lot about it.
Having swapped a couple of messages about this and that, he's got a little frustrated with me and suggests I 'read the description'!!
Anyway, I've knocked on the head.
I'll be brushing up on the CITES stuff for the future.
ps For a particular guitar, if a seller is willing to ship abroad, should they already have some kind of certificate for the purpose?
I struggle with bureaucracy.
Thanks

[RJVB]

The whole CITES thing is a can of worms because there's no official form to declare that an item does NOT contain any regulated components. So I don't see how you can NOT be tributary to the customs officer (or a customs crony employed by one of those companies doing the dirty work) knowing his or her job and not trying to be an expert.

With an old Gibson like here the instrument itself should be enough of a CITES certificate, esp. if it's accompanied by a certificate of authenticity. That really makes me wonder what kind of risk you run importing it without CITES documentation. Either it isn't recognised for what it is and there ought to be no suspicions that the fingerboard might be anything but kosher rosewood. Or it is, and the date of build will clear any questions.

[garybaldy]

The whole CITES thing is a can of worms because there's no official form to declare that an item does NOT contain any regulated components. So I don't see how you can NOT be tributary to the customs officer (or a customs crony employed by one of those companies doing the dirty work) knowing his or her job and not trying to be an expert.

With an old Gibson like here the instrument itself should be enough of a CITES certificate, esp. if it's accompanied by a certificate of authenticity. That really makes me wonder what kind of risk you run importing it without CITES documentation. Either it isn't recognised for what it is and there ought to be no suspicions that the fingerboard might be anything but kosher rosewood. Or it is, and the date of build will clear any questions.

Thanks for your reply. I'm sorry but I don't understand the word 'tributary' in this context. I must've missed school that day!! I think, some how, one needs to obtain a CITES document for a particular guitar if it has Brazilian R/W. From what I've read, it pays to be up front. How does one obtain a certificate of authenticity for an old guitar that doesn't have one?
I am looking at guitars being sold in the US where shipping abroad is available but none of the sellers mention having any kind of CITES paperwork and I don't know whether they care. Once they have my money and ship the guitar (to the UK) I'm on my own, wondering if customs are going to confiscate the guitar and whether I'd ever see it!!! let alone the worry of possible damage even.
There is this article from a UK dealer with some CITES guidance but it's possibly for their overseas buyers. CITES - Nottingham City Guitars
I'll need to re-read it to try and make sense of it.
Surely some people here have successful first hand experience with this process. I wouldn't want a precious instrument cause a complicated legal battle or to disappear into the ether.

[Doug B]

Which guitar are you looking for? Surely there must be a good choice in Great Britain or Europe? Maybe not.

[Mark M.]

Thanks for your reply. I'm sorry but I don't understand the word 'tributary' in this context. I must've missed school that day!! I think, some how, one needs to obtain a CITES document for a particular guitar if it has Brazilian R/W. From what I've read, it pays to be up front. How does one obtain a certificate of authenticity for an old guitar that doesn't have one?
I am looking at guitars being sold in the US where shipping abroad is available but none of the sellers mention having any kind of CITES paperwork and I don't know whether they care. Once they have my money and ship the guitar (to the UK) I'm on my own, wondering if customs are going to confiscate the guitar and whether I'd ever see it!!! let alone the worry of possible damage even.
There is this article from a UK dealer with some CITES guidance but it's possibly for their overseas buyers. CITES - Nottingham City Guitars
I'll need to re-read it to try and make sense of it.
Surely some people here have successful first hand experience with this process. I wouldn't want a precious instrument cause a complicated legal battle or to disappear into the ether.

From my limited experience, if you are the buyer, you are the importer. so, you need to provide the CITES certificate.

[garybaldy]

Which guitar are you looking for? Surely there must be a good choice in Great Britain or Europe? Maybe not.

I like to shop around. It's not really the point I'm making though. It's about knowing the CITES procedure should I want to buy abroad. What, if anything, is the seller legally obliged to do and what does the buyer have to do? No one seems to know!!
Yes, I'd rather buy in the UK but the choice is limited (particularly unmolested guitars) and very expensive. In reality though with vat and duty and the worry of shipping it is probably the best route for me.
I had seen a 125 that seemed, and probably is, a good deal in the US but may be too good to be true considering the sellers vagueness and his frustration with my questions. I knocked it on the head.
So I'm mainly keeping an eye open in the UK for what I want.
I'd still like to be clear with the CITES procedures though.

[garybaldy]

From my limited experience, if you are the buyer, you are the importer. so, you need to provide the CITES certificate.

Right. Ok. If only I knew how!!
If I'm buying an old instrument which I have never seen in the flesh from a far off land and I only have the sellers say so about it, I may have a gut feel that they are telling me facts but how does one convince the custom guys (at which point I've paid for the instrument and am now on my own). They probably know very little and are most likely to make things as difficult as possible and there's also the possibility of confiscation.

[Mark M.]

Right. Ok. If only I knew how!!
If I'm buying an old instrument which I have never seen in the flesh from a far off land and I only have the sellers say so about it, I may have a gut feel that they are telling me facts but how does one convince the custom guys who probably know very little and are most likely to make things as difficult as possible and there's also the possibility of confiscation.

Yes, It’s a scary process. I was lucky to have a builder on the other end who knew a lot and could help with information about filling out the form. For a fee, there are services that will assist with this process. I don’t know how expensive they are. When I dealt with all this it was the height of the shipping shortages during COVID. I took a beating on shipping costs. It’s probably better now. I think Fed Ex will also provide some import and Customs guidance. Overall, my process went smoothly in spite of a short hold up at Customs. The CITES form was attached to the box as instructed. They just didn’t see it. Make sure you keep copies of EVERYTHING!

[Mark M.]

Basically, the main things Customs is looking for is whether the purchase price on the CITES form matches the value listed on the shipping label, and whether there are raw (unfinished) protected woods. A Brazilian fingerboard, back & sides, etc, should be ok, since they are finished products. I think the advice about being up front about it is good advice. In the end the process went well for me.

[garybaldy]

Yes, It’s a scary process. I was lucky to have a builder on the other end who knew a lot and could help with information about filling out the form. For a fee, there are services that will assist with this process. I don’t know how expensive they are. When I dealt with all this it was the height of the shipping shortages during COVID. I took a beating on shipping costs. It’s probably better now. I think Fed Ex will also provide some import and Customs guidance. Overall, my process went smoothly in spite of a short hold up at Customs. The CITES form was attached to the box as instructed. They just didn’t see it. Make sure you keep copies of EVERYTHING!

Thanks. So did you and the builder jointly arrange the shipping and did the builder physically attach the certificate to the package? If so, you are very reliant on them to do stuff they possibly can't be assed to do. Yes, pretty scarey!
Oh one last thing sorry. If you have someone fill in the form for a fee, do they need to see the instrument in the flesh?
Thank you

[garybaldy]

Basically, the main things Customs is looking for is whether the purchase price on the CITES form matches the value listed on the shipping label, and whether there are raw (unfinished) protected woods. A Brazilian fingerboard, back & sides, etc, should be ok, since they are finished products. I think the advice about being up front about it is good advice. In the end the process went well for me.

The Brazilian rosewood is about how old it is, proving it and convincing the customs of the facts.

[Mark M.]

Thanks. So did you and the builder jointly arrange the shipping and did the builder physically attach the certificate to the package? If so, you are very reliant on them to do stuff they possibly can't be assed to do. Yes, pretty scarey!
Oh one last thing sorry. If you have someone fill in the form for a fee, do they need to see the instrument in the flesh?
Thank you

I didn’t end up using an import broker, but I considered it. I think that they will shepherd you through the whole process if you’re willing to pay. Yes, there is some responsibility on the seller to provide accurate information, attend to the details like attaching the form safely to the shipping box, etc. A broker does mitigate some of the risk of all this. I imported a guitar that was built for me to the US from Spain, and the builder/seller was very trustworthy and knowledgeable. If I had any doubts I might have hired an import broker.

[Mark M.]

The Brazilian rosewood is about how old it is, proving it and convincing the customs of the facts.

Yeah, this is a bit speculative and somewhat dicey. Many builders have had stocks of wood that go back a number of years. How do they know how old the piece is that they used to carve your bridge?

[Mark M.]

For the most part, I don’t think Customs would make life difficult for you just because they can. We’re talking about very small quantities of wood being imported for personal use. You’re not trying to move billets of unfinished Brazilian Rosewood.

[garybaldy]

I didn’t end up using an import broker, but I considered it. I think that they will shepherd you through the whole process if you’re willing to pay. Yes, there is some responsibility on the seller to provide accurate information, attend to the details like attaching the form safely to the shipping box, etc. A broker does mitigate some of the risk of all this. I imported a guitar that was built for me to the US from Spain, and the builder/seller was very trustworthy and knowledgeable. If I had any doubts I might have hired an import broker.

Thank you so much. The mist is starting to clear.
Regarding a broker, I did post a link somewhere in this thread for a British guitar store who may provide that service. Cheers

[Mark M.]

Thank you so much. The mist is starting to clear.
Regarding a broker, I did post a link somewhere in this thread for a British guitar store who may provide that service. Cheers

.

Good luck, my friend.

[garybaldy]

For the most part, I don’t think Customs would make life difficult for you just because they can. We’re talking about very small quantities of wood being imported for personal use. You’re not trying to move billets of unfinished Brazilian Rosewood.

I'm afraid, being now in my late 60s I take the view that if something can go wrong it will!! Trying to resolve anything these days is a nightmare!

[RJVB]

For the most part, I don’t think Customs would make life difficult for you just because they can.

Except that nowadays a shipment probably no longer sees an actual customs officer (civil servant) except maybe at the very end for a stamp of (dis)approval. The corporate employees now doing the work tend to be much more to-the-letter.

OTOH, if you go collect the guitar in person it will probably get to see a real customs officer. I've never flown with an instrument so I have no idea how much attention guitar cases attract. One could think that a beat-up old vintage case wouldn't get a 2nd glance (esp. in the hands of someone who looks vintage himself)

I'm sorry but I don't understand the word 'tributary' in this context. I must've missed school that day!!

Oops, no, that was me using a gallicism without realising it. It means something like "dependent on".

[garybaldy]

Except that nowadays a shipment probably no longer sees an actual customs officer (civil servant) except maybe at the very end for a stamp of (dis)approval. The corporate employees now doing the work tend to be much more to-the-letter.

OTOH, if you go collect the guitar in person it will probably get to see a real customs officer. I've never flown with an instrument so I have no idea how much attention guitar cases attract. One could think that a beat-up old vintage case wouldn't get a 2nd glance (esp. in the hands of someone who looks vintage himself)



Oops, no, that was me using a gallicism without realising it. It means something like "dependent on".

Thanks.
There's still an element of vagueness in all this and I am of the worrying type!!
BTW the 125 that I was interested in, but then I got cold feet, is in Texas and still for sale. It does seem cheap especially if bought by a native. But it's been listed on Ebay since last September! The only thing that looks to have been changed is the pickguard. Seems weird it hasn't sold and has 29 watchers!

[Mark M.]

Thanks.
There's still an element of vagueness in all this and I am of the worrying type!!
BTW the 125 that I was interested in, but then I got cold feet, is in Texas and still for sale. It does seem cheap especially if bought by a native. But it's been listed on Ebay since last September! The only thing that looks to have been changed is the pickguard. Seems weird it hasn't sold and has 29 watchers!

Maybe you could message the seller and see if there is an opportunity to Skype about the guitar, or at least get some communication that will allow you to get a feeling (good or bad) about it.

[garybaldy]

Maybe you could message the seller and see if there is an opportunity to Skype about the guitar, or at least get some communication that will allow you to get a feeling (good or bad) about it.

Before I started this thread I messaged the guy a couple of times as felt his description was a bit brief and, to me, unclear. So I first asked about the action, neck condition etc and he was reasonably helpful. The second time I asked if there was a case with it as he put in the description that it was packed in a "Styrofoam guitar case (not part of the product) inside the box" (not sure if he's had it packed ready since last september when it was originally listed!). Also I asked him if I made an offer of $xxxx would he accept.
So in his reply he said he was ok with the offer, that there was no case and I should "read the description"!! The last bit got my back up and I responded accordingly and said I wouldn't pursue the deal. (plus I was worried about CITES stuff)
Anyway, he never responded so I'm not sure if I want to back track.
The Skype suggestion is a good one. May be I'll let the dust settle for a bit and see if there's anything on offer closer to home for now.