A sign of the times - they can’t give this away…

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

We just got home from Dublin. While walking around, we passed a very nice music store called Musicmaker. Of course, I had to go in. They have a large stock (especially for an independent), including Fender, Gretsch, Kramer, and Gibson. They have multiple new Gibsons but no archtops of any kind and no 7s (new or used). They’re in the process of becoming an Eastman dealer, and they have a large acoustic guitar room. The staff clearly care about musicians and music. They also have recording and live sound sections, band and orchestra instruments, keys, percussion and a whole lot more.

While we were talking shop, I noticed that they had an unusual desk at the counter -



I figured it was unloaded - but it’s a perfect 4x12 Rivera cab that's been there since Noah docked the ark. They had it priced at 1000 Euros forever, subsequently dropping it bit by bit to its current asking price of 200. I considered bringing it home but thought better of checking it without a flight case. The drivers alone have to be worth more than 200, and I suspect they would have given it to me for 100 if I’d offered. There’s just no interest in the big guns any more, even in a big city with a lot of live music.

They seem to be thriving though, with a good stock of current hi tech amps and a great vibe. I really enjoyed my visit.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

The good old days. With the attendant bad back, sore joints, tinnitus, etc. It was fun though.

I started gigging in 1959 with a little Ampeg 12”. On our first show at a big venue in ‘60, I had to dime everything and blew the speaker during the last tune of our set at the Ocean City (NJ) Convention Hall. The next week, I got a Magnatone 4x12 with four 6L6s, and the race was on. But when I discovered the Boogie in about ‘78, the original 1x12 hunree with an EVM was all I needed for 3 decades. I got a Thiele closed back cab to put under the combo for bigger gigs, but I probably didn’t even need it.

A lot of those stacks were actually empty, and there were miked little combos behind them or offstage.

[Cunamara]

Somewhere there's a famous behind-the-scenes photograph of a lineup of unloaded Marshall 4 x 12's, inside one of them being a tweed Deluxe with a mic in front of it.

[mr. beaumont]

I used to have a Fender Twin...and borrow a second for gigs, run them stereo.

How important I thought I was.

[Bobby Timmons]

We're in the future.

[stevo58]

Somewhere there's a famous behind-the-scenes photograph of a lineup of unloaded Marshall 4 x 12's, inside one of them being a tweed Deluxe with a mic in front of it.

Apparently, when Mick Taylor was with the Stones, this was exactly what he did, except the visual front line was SVTs instead of those puny little girly-girl toy Marshalls.

[Litterick]

The great fake stacks scandal of 2013:


Immortal



Black Veil Brides

[gitman]

The Stadium-size rock shows are "SHOWS" and that's what people pay to see and feel and hear - it's ridiculous and not my scene but I still see 4x12" cabs in medium size clubs. Pat Martino requested such a cab on his stage-rider ! Last-but-not-least : the prices for vintage Marshall or Hiwatt cabs with the original speakers have all skyrocketed so if you have one sitting around collecting dust think twice before giving it away at a yard sale ....

[Brian859]

I was going to say back when I worked in rock and roll and the first metal show in the 80s, judas priest and a warm up band called heaven (they weren't), we loaded the entire back of the stage with empty, fake marshal stacks. But the lights all came on.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

The Stadium-size rock shows are "SHOWS" and that's what people pay to see and feel and hear - it's ridiculous and not my scene but I still see 4x12" cabs in medium size clubs. Pat Martino requested such a cab on his stage-rider ! Last-but-not-least : the prices for vintage Marshall or Hiwatt cabs with the original speakers have all skyrocketed so if you have one sitting around collecting dust think twice before giving it away at a yard sale ....

I gotta be honest - an archtop through a tube head into a 4x12 really sounds great for jazz. I tried my Quilter Microblock through the speakers in my Twin, and even that sounds fine. If I could have gotten it home, I’d have taken that Rivera cab just to use at home. There’s still room for one more under the piano

[Hammertone]

I gotta be honest - an archtop through a tube head into a 4x12 really sounds great for jazz. I tried my Quilter Microblock through the speakers in my Twin, and even that sounds fine. If I could have gotten it home, I’d have taken that Rivera cab just to use at home. There’s still room for one more under the piano

Very similar to the Pat Martino touring setup for the last few years of his career - his guitar into his Acoustic Image Clarus head, played through a closed back, unported 4x12 cab from a local backline provider, played loud.

[RJVB]

If I could have gotten it home, I’d have taken that Rivera cab just to use at home.

There's wheels under it, no?

Oh wait, you were quoting prices in € so you were in the real/original Dublin. Well ... doesn't it float (or only on rivers)?

Why is your piano on stilts, btw?

[Gitterbug]

I'm just back from the Helsinki Tonefest guitar show with a carload of stuff. Those bags and boxes contain 17 Toob and Metro cabs, six amps, stands, cables, a rollup & everything else. The times are a-changing.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Why is your piano on stilts, btw?

It’s a grand.

[ruger9]

Times do change. Late 1960’s through the 1990’s a good 4x12 ,and especially a stack of them, were standard issue for any self respecting rock band. A row of 4x12’s on the back line is the perfect back drop for a rock show.


The good old days. With the attendant bad back, sore joints, tinnitus, etc. It was fun though.

Indeed. Nothing like feeling the f'n fury! LOL

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Remember how it felt standing in front of a stack of 4x12’s with a 100watt head wide open, hitting the power E chord, and leaning back into the air the speakers were pushing? Bliss in the eye of the storm. Ha!

I double on keys and play organ on about a third of the tunes in my blues band’s set lists since we have a second guitarist who’s a fine and well seasoned player. I’ve truly loved the sound and feel of an amplified guitar for over 60 years. But the physical sensations I get from a Hammond’s big chords through a big Leslie (or two) sitting 3 feet away from me are truly wonderful, amazing, and unique. It’s there for jazz too. But a roaring organ over a solid pulsing blues groove is absolutely inspirational and beyond comparison.

I feel the pulsations in my chest and bones - it’s like I’m swimming in an ocean of thick and luscious sound, even at low volume.

[RJVB]

I feel the pulsations in my chest and bones - it’s like I’m swimming in an ocean of thick and luscious sound, even at low volume.

It tends to make me feel physically uncomfortable when such sound volumes are created by big amps (esp. when driven by a bass guitar under control of a sound techie with obvious hearing damage). But there's little so impressive as the sensations a real big church organ with a propre 32ft register can create. It's almost as if I can still feel those vibrations from the organ in the Paris Notre Dame that one time I got talked into accompanying in-laws to the Easter wake/mass/whatever. It may actually have been Marie-Claire Alain playing, a modernist French piece called (IIRC) La Création du Monde, that started out on that 32ft register (at first making me wonder what metro line runs directly under the cathedral ).

[Gitterbug]

With 124 stops and 8,000 pipes, the new concert organ at the Helsinki Music Centre is the world's largest modern organ. It's also very sculptural, worth a net search if you're interested. My wife and I attended the inaugural concert by Notre Dame's principal organist Olivier Latry on Jan 1. He was a member of the project team from the beginning. In absence of the reverberating acoustics of a large cathedral, it's a different instrument: impressive (goosebumps yes but no religious context) and very articulate. The massive (40 tons) structure itself has improved the already superb acoustics of the Centre.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

With 124 stops and 8,000 pipes, the new concert organ at the Helsinki Music Centre is the world's largest modern organ. It's also very sculptural, worth a net search if you're interested. My wife and I attended the inaugural concert by Notre Dame's principal organist Olivier Latry on Jan 1. He was a member of the project team from the beginning. In absence of the reverberating acoustics of a large cathedral, it's a different instrument: impressive (goosebumps yes but no religious context) and very articulate. The massive (40 tons) structure itself has improved the already superb acoustics of the Centre.

And I thought dragging a Hammond across the stage was a major hassle. I'll never complain again!

Growing up, I was privileged to be where the largest pipe organ in the world lives. The original Atlantic City Convention Hall (now called Boardwalk Hall) is home to a 1932 MIdmer-Losh with 33,000 pipes, 1235 stops, and an open 64 foot rank (one of only 2 in the world). After being allowed to fall into dire condition, t's been under restoration for years and is once again more than 50% operational today. The original Atlantic City High School building had a smaller but still huge 1925 Midmer-Losh with 8,325 pipes, 103 voices and 121 ranks (which are sets of pipes for specific tones, e.g. "flute"). I got to play it while I was a student there. Jazz on a pipe organ is quite an experience!

[ruger9]

I double on keys and play organ on about a third of the tunes in my blues band’s set lists since we have a second guitarist who’s a fine and well seasoned player. I’ve truly loved the sound and feel of an amplified guitar for over 60 years. But the physical sensations I get from a Hammond’s big chords through a big Leslie (or two) sitting 3 feet away from me are truly wonderful, amazing, and unique. It’s there for jazz too. But a roaring organ over a solid pulsing blues groove is absolutely inspirational and beyond comparison.

I feel the pulsations in my chest and bones - it’s like I’m swimming in an ocean of thick and luscious sound, even at low volume.

Loud is good. Those who disagree probably haven't experienced it. Or they have a heightened sensory response so it's truly "too" loud for them.

At my band's last gig (rock), the venue only mic'ed vocals. So we had to use our amps live, as PA. Which I LOVE: alot of bars in Nashville run this way. Turning the amp up loud enough to fill the space is a magical thing, me and the other guitar player had smiles on our faces all night! I HATE micing amps and using in-ears. But then I came from the generation of loud live music, even in bars, before in-ears were ever invented (wedges all the way, baby!!!)

[Alter]

But a Leslie cabinet isn't that loud, a small one has a 40 watt tube amp inside, I'm lucky to play gigs with an organ player that uses a real Leslie and Hammond. I use a Princeton reverb, or a pro junior and we play small places without amplification on anything but the vocals.

Generally most archtops dislike 12s, I would be very hesitant to use a 4x12 for a jazz gig. It does sound superb for anything else though, at any volume, tremendous luxury!

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Loud is good.

I don't subscribe to that fetish. Especially for jazz (and this is a jazz forum, after all), loud is more often bad than good. I love the way the sound of a big band envelops me when I'm playing in one. But I prefer moderate volume whether playing or listening. Sound reinforcement can make gentle players loud, but the best approach is to play at a comfrotable level and let the sound engineer do his or her thing. A lot of players simply play too loudly, and it hampers their intonation, dynamics, and fluidity.

The music is usually better when players aren't pushing for more volume. Horns can control their intonation better at moderate volumes, and it takes iron chops for drummers, pianists, etc to play intricate lines and rhythms precisely and consistently at low volumes. Playing well quietly takes skill and sensitivity that many players lack. It's also easier to hear the individual instruments in an ensemble when they're playing at moderate SPLs, because it's easier to modulate your own volume and balance it with the others. I remember seeing Mel Torme at Jazz Alley in DC many years ago, and his drummer was so light and crisp that he could carry on a conversation with you while playing intricate patterns and fills. The trio (p,b,d) was amazingly facile at any speed while playing just loudly enough to fill the room with gentle reinforcement to aid dispersion.

OTOH, Delbert McClinton invited me onto the stage for his set at the Monkton (MD) blues festival maybe 15 years ago where he was the headliner and I was a sideman with the act that was #2 on the T shirt. His band was fabulous but far too loud. The horns were all mic'ed and the trumpets had plexiglass shields in front of their bells to reflect their sound back at them. As I recall, they used IEMs but I'm not certain of this. Still, I'm sure they were all blowing as hard as they could because there was no way they could modulate their own volumes in that mix. It was so loud that it was unpleasant, even with my ear plugs in.

I haven't played rock in many years, but I've played thousands of weddings, commercial gigs, huge parties etc with some very loud bands. And I've been playing blues gigs regularly for about 60 years. I always wore earplugs until I discovered IEMs, and I now use them for my weekly jazz shows and our Sunday blues brunch. I love to feel the groove, but I also love being able to hear the world around me and want to continue doing so. So for me, it can definitely be too loud. I don't have "heightened sensory response" - I just don't think the subtlety, interplay, and interaction among most players in most genres comes through as well when they're playing too loud.

[wintermoon]

If I'm not mistaken the Wanamaker organ in Philadelphia is still the largest fully functioning organ in use today.





fascinating history to it as well....

About the Organ – Friends of Wanamaker Organ

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

But a Leslie cabinet isn't that loud, a small one has a 40 watt tube amp inside

We have a 3300 at the club in which I play twice a week. With 300 WRMS and a tube preamp, it positively screams.

They used to make bigger ones in the “good old days”. I once played a club that had gotten two of the huge double cabs from an old church. Unfortunately, they also got the B3 from that old church, and it needed serious work. I had a Roland guitar synth pickup on my LP and carried a GR20 in my trunk. So I hooked the synth up to one of the Leslies that had an instrument level input in its preamp. Not too shabby!

[jaymen]

At 86 pounds, my 65 Fender Twin Reverb is a boat anchor but sure sounds great when I play my ES-175 through it, there is nothing quite like it. a As long as someone else gets to move it around, it's a perfect amp.