Recording my acoustic updated with version with IRs.

[Jim Soloway]

I've been researching how get a more natural sound out of a piezo with some judicious EQ cuts and I'd really appreciate some feedback. Thanks in advance.

EDIT 05/16/2024: I downloaded a free pack of acoustic guitar IRs from this link Acoustic IR Sample Pack (Free) - Worship Tutorials

This is the original with no IRs

This is the same recording. The only change is that I've added acoustic IRs from the pack linked above. The difference is pretty obvious.

Stream MartinFlatWounds - 05 - 15 - 2024 - IRsInFolder by Jim Soloway | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

[jorgemg1984]

Jim, it sounds good but to my ears there's still some quack. I assume it's a 100% piezo pickup recording, so no mic?

I've found two ways to deal with "piezo quack"

1) This TC pedal

TC Electronic | Product | BODYREZ ACOUSTIC PICKUP ENHANCER

It's nothing more than clever eq and compression, but it works quite well.

2) Using IRs. Ideally you could record your own guitar's IR (not that hard to do) and then get an IR loader (pedal or plugin), ideally with an mix parameter, so you could blend the IR and the pickup (100% IR looses too much attack IMO). If you can't record your own guitar's IR, there's plenty of 3rd party around and there's probably one similar to your guitar.

Hope this helps,

[RJVB]

1) This TC pedal

Interesting, thanks!

(This tinkerer now wonders what that pedal will do to an e-guitar's sound )

2) Using IRs.

There's a free one; search for Cuki IR generator open source app.

(Sorry, I'm listening to a live broadcast so haven't listened to your recording, but if Jorge hears a piezo signature I'm confident I will too...)

[Ukena]

I also hear some of that quack, although you have tamed it quite a bit.

I have had a number of Martin Dreads in which I installed K&K Pure bridge-plate pickups. I was able to tame the quack with a ToneDexter, a preamp that allows you to record your guitar's IR (there are slots for 32 "wave maps") and then allows you to blend it in with the pickup's sound. It worked quite well, but it is not inexpensive – the new version is $200 more than I paid for the original version – and it requires some recording effort (it doesn't include a mic). It made my guitars through PAs sound very much like they did acoustically.

Then when I bought the Henriksen Bud, I found the sound through the ToneDexter wasn't much different that the sound I could get straight through to the Bud, with some EQ tweaking.

I had also tried different preamps (Redeye, K&K's own XLR Pure Preamp) which helped to a certain degree, but none of which eliminated that quack through a PA like the ToneDexter did.

[Doctor Jeff]

Maybe my hearing loss is really bad, or maybe the tinnitus covers it up, but I can't really hear much piezo quack at all. Very nice sound to my ears.

The Fishman Artist btw has an adjustable tweeter which really helps a lot in taming the PQ.

[omphalopsychos]

I still hear it on the high notes. The pedal Jorge mentioned is very good.

You also have to remember that it’s not just an EQ hack but also judicious compression. The natural dynamic range of an acoustic instrument is narrow compared to an electric guitar, which can be played from whisper quiet to ear splitting just by change of touch. A piezo pickup has too much dynamic range IMO. That’s why the TC pedal is effective: it scoops out the quacky mids and smooths out the harsh attack. The idea of using an IR is useful too.

[Jim Soloway]

I still hear it on the high notes. The pedal Jorge mentioned is very good.

You also have to remember that it’s not just an EQ hack but also judicious compression. The natural dynamic range of an acoustic instrument is narrow compared to an electric guitar, which can be played from whisper quiet to ear splitting just by change of touch. A piezo pickup has too much dynamic range IMO. That’s why the TC pedal is effective: it scoops out the quacky mids and smooths out the harsh attack. The idea of using an IR is useful too.

I just posted a version with IRs and it made a huge difference. For some reason the forum software doesn't want to let me show the new version in the initial post but maybe it will work better here.

[jorgemg1984]

I just posted a version with IRs and it made a huge difference. For some reason the forum software doesn't want to let me show the new version in the initial post but maybe it will work better here.

That sounds MUCH better!

[Ukena]

Yes, the IRs made a huge difference! No quacking that I could discern.

What are the IRs that you are using, and where did you get them?

[Jim Soloway]

Yes, the IRs made a huge difference! No quacking that I could discern.

What are the IRs that you are using, and where did you get them?

Everything I'm using on this other than my DAW is freeware.

The IR's are part of a free pack from a site called worshiptutorials.com. They market software and tutorials to the praise and worship music community. Here's a link to the actual package

Acoustic IR Sample Pack (Free) - Worship Tutorials

The actual IR is Dread 35-EXP from the folder 96k 200ms

I also left in the EQ from the original recordings but that's just done with ReaEq, the really basic EQ that comes with Reaper as well as basiQ (a Baxandall simulation equalizer) from Kuassa.

The IR loader I'm using is Pulse from Lancaster Audio

The reverb is a combination of Tal Reverb II and Convology XT from XT Recording

[omphalopsychos]

IR sounds much better but a tiny bit watery. If it were me, I’d start from there and reduce the bass a smidge and boost the frequencies above 7khz a hair to restore the transients a touch. The other thing you could do is add a bit of brighter reverb sitting low in the mix.

[jorgemg1984]

IR sounds much better but a tiny bit watery. If it were me, I’d start from there and reduce the bass a smidge and boost the frequencies above 7khz a hair to restore the transients a touch. The other thing you could do is add a bit of brighter reverb sitting low in the mix.

I agree. Another option would be to use the mix button and don't put the IR 100% wet, just to mix the IR and the pickup.

[Navdeep_Singh]

This reminds me to break out the ToneDexter for my Solomon acoustic archtop. It’s my favorite guitar I have ever played, I won’t be needing another. I used the ToneDexter for my classical Brahms guitar—it really did give the piezo pickup a true mic sound.

Check out Molly Tuttle’s videos on the ToneDexter. The guy who designed it, James May, lives in Grass Valley, CA (Nevada City). Very nice guy, an engineer by trade who also loves music. He has worked with Buscarino on his amp.


The ToneDexter is kind of an amp modeler for acoustic instruments, in pedal form .

I always dig the sound Jim is able to get with the most simple equipment.

[rpjazzguitar]

I thought the first recording had more highs. I didn't hear quack, but I have enough high frequency loss that I can't duck hunt.

The second recording sounded mellower, which I assume is because the IR is modeling something with less high end. I preferred that sound.

Or, I'm wrong.

[Doctor Jeff]

^^The second recording sounds great as usual. Love the harmonics.

Speaking of Molly Tuttle, going to see her in a few weeks. Love her, saw her last year. First show I went to where you didn’t have to wear a mask due to COVID.

I would send her plaintive love letters, but I know she’s currently attached to Ketch Secor, and, well, I like him a lot and wouldn’t want to break his heart by stealing his girl.

Thank goodness the young folks are picking up the baton from Doc Watson and Tony Rice and the other great guitarists we have been so privileged to have enjoyed over the years.

[Jim Soloway]

Thank you all for the help and the suggestions. Here's yet another version, this time blending some of the piezo with the IR. Without a lot of testing, I think I actually like this. It's a bit brighter but I think not harsh.

[RJVB]

IR sounds much better but a tiny bit watery.

Check where he got it, and then ask yourself how they serve the wine in those places

Or maybe it's just (also) because the guitar used here is not a dread, or maybe even the fact flatwounds are used? These IRs map the output from a (mechanical transducer) pickup to the sound of same notes recorded through a microphone so it's not trivial to make generally applicable ones.

I'd suggest to look into the Cuki IR stuff I mentioned above. There's a simple way to make your own IR from a simultaneous recording of your piezo output and the output of a microphone (you'd need an audio interface with 2 inputs). If that sounds promising you can submit the recording and someone will make a better model for you, as far as I understood for free.

I only tried it once to see how it would handle input from a magnetic PU, and it made me a nice garbage in, garbage out model (IIRC there's too little information in the PU output).

[Jim Soloway]

Check where he got it, and then ask yourself how they serve the wine in those places

Or maybe it's just (also) because the guitar used here is not a dread, or maybe even the fact flatwounds are used? These IRs map the output from a (mechanical transducer) pickup to the sound of same notes recorded through a microphone so it's not trivial to make generally applicable ones.

I'd suggest to look into the Cuki IR stuff I mentioned above. There's a simple way to make your own IR from a simultaneous recording of your piezo output and the output of a microphone (you'd need an audio interface with 2 inputs). If that sounds promising you can submit the recording and someone will make a better model for you, as far as I understood for free.

I only tried it once to see how it would handle input from a magnetic PU, and it made me a nice garbage in, garbage out model (IIRC there's too little information in the PU output).

I took a look but unfortunately I don't own a microphone anymore.

[Christian Miller]

I have a Tonedexter. It works great on both nylon and steel string guitars with under saddle pickups. I think they have a new version out.


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[RJVB]

I have a Tonedexter.

Did you ever compare the result obtained when recording through a good (aka expensive) mic vs. a basic one? I'd be curious to know how crucial mic quality is.

[Christian Miller]

I mean, I don’t own a U47 lol. I have a Rode NT1a and a Sure SM57.

As far as I can tell, it doesn’t make much difference, slightly different EQ between a condenser and a dynamic, say. Acoustic doesn’t really matter.

The main factor seems to be the pickup, it doesn’t get on with everything.


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[RJVB]

So basically you don't need to spend a fortune to get a proper model of the acoustic voice of your guitar ... but you also can't really hope to obtain a sound as if you were recorded by some sought-after vintage tube microphone? (or old landline? )

[Christian Miller]

So basically you don't need to spend a fortune to get a proper model of the acoustic voice of your guitar ... but you also can't really hope to obtain a sound as if you were recorded by some sought-after vintage tube microphone? (or old landline? )

I got my Tonedexter in 2019 - the state of the art will have moved on. There’s a new version out, for one.

What I have found (as Audio Sprockets advise) is that for live sound you actually want a bit of direct piezo signal mixed in. Cuts through better. I don’t think a sound emulating a classic ribbon mic on a Martin D28 or something would be all that desirable in a live mix.

Tbh I haven’t used it all that much in the past few years. I would if I did a tour in theatres and art centres. But for bar gigs, I just go Lr Baggs para Di, and EQ carefully. The Baggs is a better straight acoustic preamp than the Tonedexter, it must be said.

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[RJVB]

So you could have a Tonedexter and a Tonesinister .. how tempting, no?

[Christian Miller]

So you could have a Tonedexter and a Tonesinister .. how tempting, no?

Metalzone


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