D’angelico Style A/A-1 questions

[marcut]

I’ve been researching Style A/A-1s recently and had some questions. Currently, there are 7 Style A and A-s available for sale on Reverb and through various dealers. They’re from 1938-1940 and range in price from $12,000-$23,000 (Rudy’s A-1 of course). Owning an Excel or New Yorker is unrealistic for me but the lower end Style A’s are a possibility after selling a couple of guitars. I did a Zoom audition of one of them last week and was underwhelmed although it was done on an iPhone and by someone who didn’t play jazz. I know it’s not possible to provide a definitive answer given all of the variables with D’angelicos of this era (condition, dimensions, alterations , number of owners etc) but I’m wondering if they’re worth pursuing. I think there are plenty of other archtops, either vintage or ones built by more contemporary luthiers, at this price point that are comparable or superior and I’m guessing that part of what you’re paying for is the name on the headstock. I also think that if you can find a solid D’angelico A1 it can be an exceptional guitar and as good as an Excel or other guitars from this period.

[Stringswinger]

I own three of John D'Angelico's guitars. I have a 1935 Excel. a 1837 Style A and a 1948 Style B. All are non-cut 17 inch guitars. All are amazing acoustic guitars. While they all do sound a bit different (every piece of wood is different), depending on your taste, the Style A might sound better to you than the Excel. The quality of the wood seems to be the same on all models. The only real difference is the amount of "bling".

If you get a Style A or even a Style A-1, it might be the best guitar that you have ever played. Use caution. Old guitars can need a LOT of expensive work. Know what is up with any guitar that will cost big bucks. HTH

[marcut]

Thanks for your helpful reply, SS. I was hoping you would comment given your extensive knowledge and direct experience with D’angelicos. I hear what you’re saying about old guitars. I own a ‘36 L6 and have owned a couple of ‘30s and ‘40s Triumphs that were all in good to great shape and I didn’t need to invest in anything other than strings. A couple of DA’s currently available look like they need or could use some work which is an additional factor to consider.

[deacon Mark]

I have owned 6 of them personally. I still have 2 New Yorkers a 49 and 37. I owned an Excel, Style A, and a Style B. In addition another New Yorker. Frankly the sound has little to do with the model. Has more to do with the size of guitar and somewhat the period of D'angelico's. The 17 inch Style B I sold back in 2004 was great sounding. No problem keeping up with any New Yorker.

Therein lies the difference in size. The bigger guitars have a different sound lag. The 17's are a bit faster out of the box and the ones made are the earlier years when acoustic sound was all that the guitar was made for. To me these are fine guitars and paying more for a higher model you are simply buying more gingerbread. That said my 2 New Yorkers now clearly exceed in sound. Although the sound quite different. I have described this before in the forums.

Having played many D'angelico guitars over the years I have to admit getting past the name can be hard. The true and only test that would be valid is a real shoot out where you heard the guitars but could not see which one was being played. No question Dangelicos are among the finest but I can tell you Gibsons for the era can sound as good or better. My 1938 L5 has no real trouble fitting in the sound scheme, and it really is what the player prefers.

For the most part Dangelico guitars were bought and played extensively and that is a good thing. It is also the telling of real guitarist and what they like because these guitars did not sit unused. Therefore, in many cases they need upkeep and things done to keep them playing well. Those guitars have quite human features and like me the older I get I need a few things done to keep working properly. Real players who also collect a bit realize this and are ok with modifications mostly if done properly and well. Many Dangelicos have been refinished and I suspect that possible 1/2 of them ever made have been refinished. Done in a nitro lacquer by a pro this is not a problem. Sometimes they even come out sound better, yes I said that. D'angelico himself many times refinished his guitars especially after natural finished came out around 1940. Guys would have their old sunburst natural as had nice wood and John would do this.

It is a balance and if you don't have a D'angelico getting a Style A or A1 might be the opening. However, I can say that at that price point the options for say a cutaway L5 acoustic might be much better. So question for anyone

Would you rather have an acoustic cutaway L5 from 1959 for $12,000?
Or a non-cutaway Style A1 from 1939 for $12,000.

The great question for those interested.

[marcut]

Thanks Mark for your thoughtful and informative response. I had a similar thought regarding DAs vs L5 of this era in a similar price range. Per Stringswinger in a previous post, the Style A and and A-1 were D’Angelico’s attempts to compete with Gibson L10s and L7s respectively. I’m not sure if the Excel was his answer to the L5 or inspired by something else. I agree that the best way to assess the differences and quality would be a blind test but, other than Omphalopsychos’ post a few years ago, I haven’t heard any.
The other thing I’ve considered at a similar price point is modern luthier’s take on DAs and L5s of this era.The finest guitar I own is a 2018 Trenier Special that was inspired by late 20’s Loar Gibsons. Although it doesn’t have the mojo of an 80 year old guitar, it ticks off all the boxes and doesn’t have the aging issues of a vintage guitar.
Great questions and hopefully other folks will chime in.

[deacon Mark]

MARCUT,
What you need is a Barker guitar. A 17 inch and they are warm and friendly players. Most Barkers have no trouble competing with D'angelico's and my 2 are outstanding. They can be had for less than and L5c and of course a D'angelico. I know where some are for sale and if interested contact me PM. The scale length is 24 27/32 I have Barker's old fret scale ruler that Hollenbeck modified to make it easier to use on a fly. These guitars are really to me close and all of them are now almost 40 years old minimum.

[Stringswinger]

There is no question that sometimes the market price of a certain guitar will be higher, just because of rarity, than other guitars that play and sound as good (or better).

I also believe that the best archtop investments say Gibson on the headstock. The fact is that for the most part, perceived value is driven largely by who played a certain model. I am an example of this kind of behavior. My jazz guitar heroes played Gibson, D'Angelico and D'Aquisto guitars (mostly). D'Aquisto's are beyond my comfort zone price wise, but 10 of my 11 archtops either say Gibson or D'Angelico on the headstock.

[andrew]

Out of curiosity, what is the difference between a "Style A" and a "Style A-1"?

[Stringswinger]

Out of curiosity, what is the difference between a "Style A" and a "Style A-1"?

Less Bling.

The Style A was meant to compete price wise with a Gibson L-10 and the A-1 competed price wise with the Gibson L-7. Like the L-7, an A-1 should not have a sunburst back. Those A-1's that have a sunburst back have most likely been refinished. Not that there is anything wrong with a refinish if it is done well. John D'Angelico and Jimmy D'Aquisto refinished guitars all the time. But collectors seem to be allergic to the concept and a refinished vintage guitar will suffer a valuation loss in the mind of collectors. Which creates opportunities for those of us who are players.

[wintermoon]

Out of curiosity, what is the difference between a "Style A" and a "Style A-1"?

A-1's are basically the same as A's but had brown strained back sides and neck which allowed for woods w flaws to be used, similar to a Gibson L-7 in that regard which also meant less finish work and a lower price than A's.
They're considered the bottom of the prewar D'Angelico line, though a friend of mine had a DA called a Special 100 or something like that which was even lower.

ps I see SS and I were typing simultaneously, so now you have confirming info