Death of USA made guitars

[Christian Miller]

I dunno I got a Gibson because I like the guitar, rather than any ideological rationale.

I’d rather have fewer quality instruments than lots of cheap ones though.

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[Jazz4Four]

Because.. it will make any difference to the world order? Because it will restore my faith in US politics as being something other than a self serving bog of mendacity? Because.. that'll show them.. whoever 'them' is. Nope. I'm a capitalist and libertarian. Show me a good value that doesn't duplicate something I already have and I'll see if I can't make room for it.

That's fine, and it's a rational attitude. I'm not lecturing, and I've read a lot of good things about Chinese archtops. I'm simply saying that for me there are other considerations that come into play when purchasing luxury items. My issue with China is that I live in the US, and China is a geopolitical enemy. I've been eyeing the Comins GCS series, manufactured in South Korea, and I have much less of a problem with that.

Why should I mix the political interests of the US with my guitar buying?

Because it's good to support your country and the people in it. Things were better when we manufactured more things domestically.

[Jazz4Four]

I dunno I got a Gibson because I like the guitar, rather than any ideological rationale.

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At one time Britain had a slew of car companies. Now there's zero British-owned car brands. See where this goes?

[Jazz4Four]

TBH while we have a great beer culture in America with a lot of variety, I only like about 20% of them. Not a fan of the overly hopped IPAs. My favorites include Fat Tire, New Belgium Trippel and Dogfish Head 90-minute Ale. I just read that Spencer ale is closing down, which makes me very sad.

It's funny, I hear so many people saying they aren't into the modern IPAs—yet the breweries keep cranking them out. Somebody must be drinking them.

Too bad about Spencer—for years I would see it on the shelf and think "I should try that sometime." Beer and guitars are two of the good things in life.

[Christian Miller]

At one time Britain had a slew of car companies. Now there's zero British-owned car brands. See where this goes?

I refute your argument thus

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[Jazz4Four]

I refute your argument thus

Nice—I'll admit I had to google image search that one... doesn't that prove my point though?!?

[GuyBoden]

At one time Britain had a slew of car companies. Now there's zero British-owned car brands. See where this goes?

Sadly, even the family firm of Morgan founded in 1910 by Henry Frederick Stanley Morgan, are now owned by an Italian investment group.



But, many small British bespoke car builders are going strong.

Caterham



AC Cobra.



Ineos Grenadier


Ariel Nomad



Just for perspective, the AC company also manufactured this disabled car for the UK government.

[Woody Sound]

although the death is an exaduration i

Huh?

[Woody Sound]

although the death is an exaduration

[Woody Sound]

T,FTFY

Attachment 111359

Nice b'roke guitar.

[Doctor Jeff]

Nice b'roke guitar.

"If it ain't baroque, don't fix it."

--JS Bach

[Doctor Jeff]

Looking at my current collection--I have 5 US-made guitars (2 Gibsons, 1 Taylor, 1 Harmony, 1 Kay), 1 Japanese (Gretsch), 2 Chinese (Voyage Air, Cordoba). I've had a number of Korean-made guitars, as well, all of which were excellent.

Re' the British auto manufacturing, there are still quite a lot of factories in Britain making cars, just for foreign owners: Mini, Land Rover, Bentley, Rolls, MG, etc.

I haven't done a deep dive into the reasons, but I've heard it described as "death by a thousand cuts." The build quality of English cars in the 70s-90s was not great compared to the competition, especially Japanese imports. Plus there were some devastating labor strikes during that time period. I believe several of the manufacturers like BL were propped up by the government, but this is just going off of memory. Not necessarily a lack of patriotism per se, but good old-fashioned capitalism that killed British car companies.

And that comes back to guitars. Actually the OP could have written this in the '60s, at least as applied to cheaper American offerings. American companies have ALWAYS sold premium guitars to a hungry public. However, the cheaper Fenders and Gibsons, not to mention Harmony and Kay, were killed off by foreign competition initially from Japan. Many if not most of us and in fact many famous musicians like Keith Richards, Jeff Beck and Rory Gallagher first played Japanese guitars. (The Beatles made do with imports from Germany, Holland and South Africa.)

So for at least 50 years it has not been profitable for US companies to make modestly-priced guitars in the US. They have stuck with the more premium guitars, and farm out the cheaper stuck to (mainly) Asia. This will likely not change in our lifetimes.

[Christian Miller]

Nice—I'll admit I had to google image search that one... doesn't that prove my point though?!?

It is a dread sigil that inspires both fear and contempt in Englishman of a certain vintage.

Anyway, not really. British Leyland was an unwieldy conglomerate created by mergers of many small companies and weirdly incapable of producing anything better than almost good cars seemingly all afflicted by some strange flaw or other. Ultimately BL was defeated by their basic inability to produce products - set against, say, German imports - that people would actually want to buy all things being equal. The bloody thing was partially nationalised. Our export market wasn’t exactly vibrant lol.

See also, Thatcher. And the Trabant.

(I suppose Jaguars were nice.)

For the gory and sometime hilarious details I refer you to the YouTube channel ‘intergalactic binman’; for my own anecdotal experience I spent much of my childhood in an endless string of Austins, rovers and Vauxhalls (and also Fords and Renaults, to be fair) looking wistfully at slightly better off families in their VW Golf’s. Now I drive a Golf. It’s very good.

Actually I remember the Astra fondly. But it was a rebranded Opel, not an indigenous model. Also at that time Vauxhall was owned by GM lol

So yea, dues paid. Not my fault lol. Maybe look at the systemic issues with the politics and economics behind the lamentable tale of British Leyland’s demise than blaming a lack of patriotism lol. In fact patriotic goodwill may have insulated BL from an inevitable reckoning for years.

Simple narratives are appealing, the world is messy.


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[Christian Miller]

Otoh Gibson despite all the carping produces nice guitars that people want to own. People like me .


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[RJVB]

That is the famous “Sabionari” guitar made by Stradivarius in 1679.

But…the Italians didn’t invent the guitar. That honor seems to belong to the Spanish

Didn't intend to claim they did, and yes, presumably.

That's probably not why Spain is also the country associated with the guitar.

In fact, if you look at US catalogues from the early 20th C you'll see a lot of domestic instruments described a "Spanish guitars", regardless of whether they were steel or gut-strung.

Re' the British auto manufacturing, there are still quite a lot of factories in Britain making cars, just for foreign owners: Mini, Land Rover, Bentley, Rolls, MG, etc.

Not MG: MG Motor - Wikipedia but part of the Mini models are apparently indeed still being manufactured in the UK.

[Doctor Jeff]

Didn't intend to claim they did, and yes, presumably.

That's probably not why Spain is also the country associated with the guitar.

In fact, if you look at US catalogues from the early 20th C you'll see a lot of domestic instruments described a "Spanish guitars", regardless of whether they were steel or gut-strung.

Not MG: MG Motor - Wikipedia but part of the Mini models are apparently indeed still being manufactured in the UK.

IDK, I would think that's why they were called "Spanish guitars", after the classical and flamingo style guitars associated with Spain. (I know you knew the history of the guitar though...) I think the term "Electric Spanish" is kind of a dumb term. What marketing genius came up with that?

As far as MG, I guess they made cars there in '16-17. SAIC motors invested about half a billion $$ to make MGs there, but in the end it didn't work out. Lots of Chinese MGs in the UK though.

BTW, there is a seriously sexy MG electric that I would buy in a heartbeat if it ever made its way to these shores. Supposed to be cheap too.

[Christian Miller]

Nice. I’ll have two.

But yeah the British marques have overseas owners.

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[RJVB]

IDK, I would think that's why they were called "Spanish guitars", after the classical and flamingo style guitars associated with Spain.

Well, there is something to say that the guitar was invented in Spain twice. The "Ur ancestor", long ago, and then indeed what we now recognise as the "Spanish guitar". I suppose most would consider Torres to be the father of that instrument but I don't know the historical relationship between the classical and the flamenco guitar.

BTW, there is a seriously sexy MG electric that I would buy in a heartbeat if it ever made its way to these shores. Supposed to be cheap too.

Doesn't look very original (but then this is a guitar forum ... ). "Cheap" is undoubedly relative, or else it probably has a battery that will allow to return to home base barely after accelerating once to top speed?

But yeah the British marques have overseas owners.

For one of them you can cross a sea but only need to cross a channel

[Spook410]

...
Because it's good to support your country and the people in it. Things were better when we manufactured more things domestically.

Actually, the US has became a consumer and services based economy. So, it changed. More data centers, fewer machine shops. Which is fine. Except for some strategic stuff like chips and weapons. As for protecting manufacturing jobs, look no further than Ford, Stellantis, and GM for what happens when the government (or buy 'murica') steps in.

So, guitars. A completely non-consequential bit of manufactured goods, if people buy them based on country of manufacture instead of design, workmanship, materials, and other bits of goodness, do you think the resulting guitars are going to be better or worse? Ayn Rand had it right. Goodness comes from productivity, innovation, competition, and hard work. Not populism, nationalism, and blind faith.

[Woody Sound]

One of the funniest film lines ever, was in one of the Tom Hanks renaissance adventure films. When the good/bad guy is cleaning up after his stabbing murdering, he says something like "Not my best work, but good enough for Italians."

I can say that as a second born italian/polish.

[grahambop]

I think the term "Electric Spanish" is kind of a dumb term. What marketing genius came up with that?

I believe that was to distinguish Gibson’s ES (electric spanish) line from their EH (electric hawaiian) line, which was also a popular range back in those days.

I once got a book on the history of Gibson and was surprised to see photos of all these weird old electric hawaiian things, I didn’t realise they were so popular then.

[Jazz4Four]

Actually, the US has became a consumer and services based economy. So, it changed.

It has in many respects—not a good thing.

So, guitars. A completely non-consequential bit of manufactured goods, if people buy them based on country of manufacture instead of design, workmanship, materials, and other bits of goodness, do you think the resulting guitars are going to be better or worse? Ayn Rand had it right. Goodness comes from productivity, innovation, competition, and hard work. Not populism, nationalism, and blind faith.

I get it—you like your Chinese guitars. That's fine. And when China becomes too expensive, production will be moved to a poorer country and the cycle will begin again. I don't know what "populism, nationalism, or blind faith" has to do with Americans choosing to buy American products. Sounds like patriotism irks you.

[RJVB]

Ayn Rand had it right. Goodness comes from productivity, innovation, competition, and hard work. Not populism, nationalism, and blind faith.

Somehow this reminded me of a little company making beautiful guitars in a beautiful place:
General 1 — Dehradun Guitar Company

I don't know what "populism, nationalism, or blind faith" has to do with Americans choosing to buy American products. Sounds like patriotism irks you.

If someone choses locally-made over anything else regardless of price, features and/or quality then nationalism/patriotism and some kind of blindness must have something to do with that choice. How could it not?
Of course that's everyone's own choice, but when it is evangelicised that's when it starts to become irksome. (And this may be difficult to conceive for some, but the irk level does depend on how big/visible/omnipresent the country in question is.)

Anyway, about that Morgan a bit back ... is that a Guzzi or a H-D twin poking out of its nose? Looks more like the latter, which would be a bit surpising for a British car

[Jazz4Four]

Anyway, about that Morgan a bit back ... is that a Guzzi or a H-D twin poking out of its nose? Looks more like the latter, which would be a bit surpising for a British car

Is it a Morgan if it's made in China? Should Gibsons be made in China because then they would be cheaper to produce? Some of us consider more than simply "what is the cheapest thing I can buy."

As I said previously, I'm sure your Chinese guitars are great. I was simply pointing out that there are other considerations when purchasing guitars.

[RJVB]

Is it a Morgan if it's made in China?

Why wouldn't it be, if it's not a Chorgan?

I do consider provenance when I buy an instrument, but ultimately sound, characteristics and build quality are why I might want to buy a particular instrument, and price is going to determine if I will or if I can't.

And of course, from where I'm sitting it doesn't really matter from an ecological point of view if I buy a from across an ocean or across an old wall