Death of USA made guitars

[Brian859]

Well, you also have the body and neck makers like warmoth and several others in the us that seem well established.

[Christian Miller]

Also there’s MusicMan, you use some Big Names and an American made high end line. It’s not all the big two.


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[Christian Miller]

Also the vibe I get is that the proper electric session players go for PRS (because they intonate really well apparently) and Suhr. Suhr is another proper US maker of course. Collings too, quite popular where musicians can afford one (which is not super often lol) and more desirable in the players community than anything Gibson is putting out I wound say.


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[jads57]

So even good paying gigs pay the same as 25 years ago. And that’s not a livable wage any longer. Well it was hardly livable back then as well, Lol!

[SierraTango]

Quite surprised not any mention of Benedetto Guitars in Savannah, GA. I don't recall the word "affordable" in the OP.
A real American success story. Many younger artists playing the instruments and famous endorsers. From all reports I hear they have no trouble selling their product.
The least expensive guitar on the website around $5600 for a Bambino. Every one I've ever encountered has been a top notch, versatile instrument beautifully crafted.
I realize I'm biased, and $5600 is a hunk of change, however it is further evidence that American craftmanship is still shining bright.

[Spook410]

Some feel nationalist pride over good guitars being made in their country. That's OK. If it works for wine and cheese and watches, should work for guitars.

Then there is the 'representative of national quality standards..'. Yes. Collings are great and consistent. However, Ford, GM, and Boeing, not so much.

Finally, guitar making as an analog for the ability of a national manufacturing base to stand up to the pressures of globalization.. don't think it's the sort of industry that maps well to global trends. Guitars have a lot to do with perception and many, especially bound-to-tradition jazz players, have a lot of emotion invested in their choices.

[Banksia]

My Gibson guitars have Asian made tuners and Canadian made cases.

My Fender guitars have Asian made tuners and Asian made cases.

The Pots on all of these guitars are probably Asian made.

Globalization. It's a thing......

My 1995 American Standard Strat does say Made in the USA on the headstock. Do current American made Strats and Teles not say that anymore?

I have a 1997 Lonestar Strat which is Made in USA so I don't know what year they changed. Some models may still qualify for Made in USA.

[Bluedawg]

I have a Fender Precision bass that I bought about 14 years ago that says "Made in USA."

I have a Fender Jazz bass I bought in 2022 that says "Corona, California."

Looks like there were efforts to update the standard going on in 2020, but I haven't found an actual date for the change.

I understand why you wouldn't want a product that was only 51% US made to be labeled made in USA, but it looks like it was raised to a rather subjective of "all or almost all" made in the USA to qualify. I'm not convinced they are just assembling foreign made parts and pieces in Corona or Nashville ... or Stevensville, MD, but I can see allowing a small percentage of the little parts and pieces that may be better done elsewhere like electronics or tuners or fret wire.

Call it nationalistic if you want, but I see buying stuff made in your home country as an extension of buying locally and spending my money in ways that help my "neighbors." You can't always do that, but if you can I'm willing to consider it.


From another perspective American guitars may be kind of like Italian violins.

A friend of mine was backpacking her way through Europe in her youth and ended up working briefly for an American making violins in Italy. She asked him why he didn't return home and make his violins back in his hometown in the US. He told her he can sell his violins for more money if he makes them in Italy.

[Banksia]

Quite surprised not any mention of Benedetto Guitars in Savannah, GA. I don't recall the word "affordable" in the OP.
A real American success story. Many younger artists playing the instruments and famous endorsers. From all reports I hear they have no trouble selling their product.
The least expensive guitar on the website around $5600 for a Bambino. Every one I've ever encountered has been a top notch, versatile instrument beautifully crafted.
I realize I'm biased, and $5600 is a hunk of change, however it is further evidence that American craftmanship is still shining bright.

Yes but there will always be a market in any country for high-quality locally-made guitars. I don't have any numbers but I'm guessing Benedetto has maybe 1% of the US guitar market, if that. I've read recent statistics that give the top 5 brands - Fender, Gibson, Epiphone, Yamaha and Ibanez - 88% of the US market. I'm surprised PRS isn't in the top 5 and I assume they take a decent chunk of the remaining 12%

In a 2020 interview the CEO of Benedetto said they only make about 100 guitars a year and they were aiming for 120.

So you are right. They are an existing USA guitar maker but I think the overall context of this thread talks about larger-scale production. For instance, back in 1960 Gibson canned the unsuccessful Les Paul model because they were only selling 600/year. Even back in the 50s when the White Falcon was the most expensive guitar on the market, Gretsch made them in batches of 50 or 100. Benedetto is making 100 units across 10 different models.

[RJVB]

Call it nationalistic if you want, but I see buying stuff made in your home country as an extension of buying locally and spending my money in ways that help my "neighbors."

Of course, that's an (app)laudable attitude too, though even in smaller countries you may end up buying less locally than if you shopped just across your nearest border. But that's also an argument that only flies in the home country, and I fail to see how it could increase sales value abroad.

From another perspective American guitars may be kind of like Italian violins.

A friend of mine was backpacking her way through Europe in her youth and ended up working briefly for an American making violins in Italy. She asked him why he didn't return home and make his violins back in his hometown in the US. He told her he can sell his violins for more money if he makes them in Italy.

I think that's more or less what I've been getting at. There's a long-standing history of violin-making in Italy, and Cremona is undoubtedly the most famous of the 3 big violin-making (training) centres in Europe (but in the 2nd half of the 19th C. Mirecourt and French violins probably had the upper hand). There's also the even older European guild tradition that's still at play and tends to make artisans of a profession try to set up their own shop near where they were trained.
But comparing customs in the classical music/instruments universe with those in popular music remains tricky. There may be proportionally more "fiddlers" in the US than in Europe but I would expect there must be at least a comparable amount of classical violin players (plus ditto viola & cello players), and all of those will be looking for instruments built in European tradition. Maybe it's just that guitars are an exception among US-made products in that they're not less expensive than the same products made elsewhere?

An interesting counter example, well known in these parts: [url=https://jedistar.com/trenier-guitars/]Bryant Trenier[/ul]. I'm unclear on his personal background (family name is clearly French) or where he started initially, but he apparently studied in the Czech republic (a somewhat surprising choice?), then moved (back?) to the US before settling in the south of France. He doesn't seem to be building (or charging) less.

[pan60]

i like USA made guitars for a number of reason mostly because when i was younger i had cheaper imports and the first USA made guitar i gought i went WOW this is nice. it was used a long gone but it stck with me.
i have own a number of imports i they nevr grown on me.
i have a very nice ibanez prestige made in Japan and it is super nice has a nice neck but i would rather play a tele
the one that got away was a old 175 with p-90s i loved that guitar sold it when i moved here i allways though it would get another but never have.
i also like supporting the made in USA when i can. having said that i would 100% buy a guitar made elswhere if it was what i wanted.

[m_d]

I have a Fender Precision bass that I bought about 14 years ago that says "Made in USA."

Call it nationalistic if you want, but I see buying stuff made in your home country as an extension of buying locally and spending my money in ways that help my "neighbors." You can't always do that, but if you can I'm willing to consider it.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that, despite any propaganda to the contrary. It is perfectly human and normal. Nations are still very much relevant and just work. Go to Japan - you immediately understand why and can never revert to a different idea. For a special occasion a few years ago, I had a dozen possible options but chose to order from Maurice Dupont, France being my country of birth; 30% of my motivations were purely jingoistic (well, I knew the guitar would be great, too).

[Stringswinger]

Absolutely nothing wrong with that, despite any propaganda to the contrary. It is perfectly human and normal. Nations are still very much relevant and just work. Go to Japan - you immediately understand why and can never revert to a different idea. For a special occasion a few years ago, I had a dozen possible options but chose to order from Maurice Dupont, France being my country of birth; 30% of my motivations were purely jingoistic (well, I knew the guitar would be great, too).

I am supportive of the idea of "Buying American" where I can, but it is not always possible, or even wise (one should buy the best product regardless of it's place of manufacture). Regarding guitars, I have never played any Gypsy guitars built by an American luthier (Holos and Bumgartners are nice, but do not rise to the level of a Dupont or Favino or Shelley Park, IMO) that have worked for me, so my Gypsy guitars were built in France and Canada (A Dupont and a Shelley Park). And my next car will be a Toyota (which may well be assembled in the USA) as the American offerings are simply inferior.

I have played some fine Japanese and European archtop guitars, but none that eclipsed the American offerings, so all of my archtops were made in the USA.

[Gregc57]

I don't think USA built guitars will go away, but perhaps there may be less per year built.....
and that may be a GOOD thing. Let's keep the quality of the woods and the build as high as we expect.
Sometimes less is more.....
(just like my noodling on said instrument)

[Spook410]

(why didn't I buy a Colling's back when? I even toured the factory and met the man himself)

[m_d]

I am supportive of the idea of "Buying American" where I can, but it is not always possible, or even wise (one should buy the best product regardless of it's place of manufacture). Regarding guitars, I have never played any Gypsy guitars built by an American luthier (Holos and Bumgartners are nice, but do not rise to the level of a Dupont or Favino or Shelley Park, IMO) that have worked for me, so my Gypsy guitars were built in France and Canada (A Dupont and a Shelley Park). And my next car will be a Toyota (which may well be assembled in the USA) as the American offerings are simply inferior.

I have played some fine Japanese and European archtop guitars, but none that eclipsed the American offerings, so all of my archtops were made in the USA.

I frankly don't disbelieve that the best of American archtops are superior to anything else - you guys invented them. And Martin guitars - a recent discovery for me: genius.

I'm going to say something that may ruffle some feathers again but Japan to me felt like a full-scale experimentation of a conservative society - from manners to buying habits to even pervasive spirituality. An overall very peaceful and refreshing experience. All those values that we keep hearing are passé, reactionary and dangerous, actually work and allow for a creative, prosperous and dynamic economy, who would have thought? Buying habits: virtually all cars are Japanese, like most people don't even think twice. In big cities, a few luxury (mostly German) cars are rare exceptions. Their cars somehow qualify as "best" anyway because all will be well engineered and built however modest; hence they rarely turn to foreign cars. They have that privilege of having retained an industrial base and an engineering culture, which we have declared to be no longer worthy of or our labor or our high environmental conscience (no apparent EV craze by the way... maybe as they're not considered viable?). Spiritual: temples and shrines everywhere, visited by people of all walks of life, from cashier to CEO, young and old. In a historical cemetary we visiting, large companies e.g. Panasonic, had mausoleums dedicated to their retired and deceased workers for making their success possible (one can get the gist of the dedications thanks to Google Translate) ; very moving to see. I'm rambling.

[RJVB]

I frankly don't disbelieve that the best of American archtops are superior to anything else - you guys invented them.

It'd be really interesting to see and hear a proper, in-depth comparison of a number of famous US-made archtops with their counterparts from the golden age of German archtop lutherie. IMHO that would have to be a chiefly acoustic comparison, of course.
(My implied point and to keep with the flow: it's probably safe to say that Japan does "American" cars and bikes better than the US, nowadays O:-) )

I'm going to say something that may ruffle some feathers again but Japan to me felt like a full-scale experimentation of a conservative society - from manners to buying habits to even pervasive spirituality. An overall very peaceful and refreshing experience.

Not ruffling any feathers of mine, but I do wonder how long it would take for me to feel stiffled over there, like I know I would in most parts of the US.
What's certainly refreshing is that they can be spiritual without bothering anyone else with it, they tend not to permeate their forum posts with it for instance. (Well, refreshing after a number of years on non-science/tech related forums...)

[pan60]

(Originally by pan60)---
LOL just finding one in my neck of the woods isnt so easy. i was chating with a friend and he said he ended up doing mail order for his last fender.
as for gibson i dont know of a gibson dealer around here?

Where's "[your] neck of the woods"? There are a lot fewer musical instrument stores than there used to be, but the reduction in storefronts has been typical of much of American retail. You have to remember that stores are in business to make money and they're not going to stock expensive items that no one wants to buy - they can't afford to tie up their capital in what amounts to vanity stock.

At least high-quality instruments are easily available now, though they're not necessarily available for in-person auditioning. When I was young and living in northwestern Pennsylvania, one had to travel to Cleveland or Pittsburgh to find availability of certain types of instruments. Now you can just find one on the internet and it will be on your doorstep in a few days.

It isn't as convenient as local store stocking of instruments, but at least they're available.

just my thought as i the poster has removed the post i will leave the name off but wabted to give my thoughts.

i dont live in or near a large city
yes i know store have to make money i ran ny own a music store for years.
the fact that they cant make money on high end / vanity stock i find hard to beleave but it goes to just how much the time have changed.
mom and pop shops cant compeat with the mail order easily and that in and of itself force them to sell a lower cost product. finding an import that is quality and at a lower price point allows them to maybe keep some of their custimer base?
how ever when i ran my stor i only sold high end guitar i had a fraction of the walking trafic the store down the road had but i still did good.
has for availability i do see just the same.
first off i havent traved to a larger city i many many years and honestly dont plan to. i have no interst.
i like to handle a guitar before i buy i want to play ten or twenty and want some options not just take this roaswood sab sunburst strat made in mexico when i want a fiesta red maple cap made in the USA. or mabe i settle for the surf green because it feels better?
i have no plans to mail order.
i dont need a new guitar how ever i do still buy guitars mostly used because i cant find nes one in any of the stores and as mention i have interst in mail order.
so at the end of the day for me the USA made guitar is for all practical purposes is dead or at minimum near death.
that may not be the case for some of my dear freind in LA, NY or Chicago but it is what it is for me

[Jazz4Four]

It reminds me of the great beer drinking culture. At one time Germany, Belgium, and some parts of Europe the center of great original beers. That has now actually been taken over and right now in the US we have some of the best and most important beers in world.

We have a bevy of overdone, alcoholic IPAs that don't taste particularly good. I'll take Europe's beers any day!

I'm not sure if South Korea can ever become what the US is to guitars. The USA-made premium is partly due to the US being the literal birthplace of the most famous guitars in history. Leo Fender didn't open his shop in Seoul or Shenzhen. That said, whether this will matter to people in 20 or 50 years is up for debate.

[Jazz4Four]

Call it nationalistic if you want, but I see buying stuff made in your home country as an extension of buying locally and spending my money in ways that help my "neighbors." You can't always do that, but if you can I'm willing to consider it.

It's only in the past 50 years that the globalists have designated "Nationalism" as a bad word. That doesn't mean I wouldn't buy a guitar from Japan or South Korea. However, as a US citizen I am aware that China is a "frenemy". I don't care how cheap the Chinese guitars are, I'm not buying them. I like the fact that Americans were employed to build my US-made guitars, and I'll continue pay the premium for them.

[RJVB]

We have a bevy of overdone, alcoholic IPAs that don't taste particularly good. I'll take Europe's beers any day!

I was going to say! I happen to like Bud (the US clone) well enough (the original Budweiser is hard to find here too) but most of those IPAs (wherever they come from) seem to be made for (and by?) the Starbucks crowd for when they want something other than coffee.

Belgian beer culture is really something apart, hard to really experience anywhere but locally because of limited production and distribution.

the US being the literal birthplace of some of the most famous guitars in history.

T,FTFY

[Doug B]

Also there’s MusicMan, you use some Big Names and an American made high end line. It’s not all the big two.

There is also G&L for solidbodies.


Doug

[Doctor Jeff]

We have a bevy of overdone, alcoholic IPAs that don't taste particularly good. I'll take Europe's beers any day!

I'm not sure if South Korea can ever become what the US is to guitars. The USA-made premium is partly due to the US being the literal birthplace of the most famous guitars in history. Leo Fender didn't open his shop in Seoul or Shenzhen. That said, whether this will matter to people in 20 or 50 years is up for debate.

TBH while we have a great beer culture in America with a lot of variety, I only like about 20% of them. Not a fan of the overly hopped IPAs. My favorites include Fat Tire, New Belgium Trippel and Dogfish Head 90-minute Ale. I just read that Spencer ale is closing down, which makes me very sad.

I am a huge Belgian fan and have only encountered one Belgian ale that I didn’t like—unfortunately I can’t remember which one!

As far as guitars, the fit and finish on Korean guitars is (IME) usually excellent, though the electronics often leave something to be desired. Japan is a step up in terms of quality, and the electronics are on par with the manufacture.

It's only in the past 50 years that the globalists have designated "Nationalism" as a bad word. That doesn't mean I wouldn't buy a guitar from Japan or South Korea. However, as a US citizen I am aware that China is a "frenemy". I don't care how cheap the Chinese guitars are, I'm not buying them. I like the fact that Americans were employed to build my US-made guitars, and I'll continue pay the premium for them.

I would say the National Socialists in Germany made “nationalism” a bad word.

Economic nationalism—which I think you mean “buy in your own country”—is fine as long as it doesn’t veer into mercantilism and state management of the economy. Which unfortunately it has a tendency to do when implemented by politicians.

Adam Smith laid it out well 250 years ago. How do nations acquire wealth? By producing certain things that their people and environment allow them to do well. Americans are obviously good at producing high quality archtops and some solid bodies. Clearly they aren’t as suited for making cheaper guitars.

[Doctor Jeff]

That is the famous “Sabionari” guitar made by Stradivarius in 1679.

But…the Italians didn’t invent the guitar. That honor seems to belong to the Spanish, who were making similar instruments in the 1500s. The oldest known guitar still in existence is this 1590 Portuguese guitar, currently on display at the MIM in Phoenix.

[Spook410]

I like Chinese archtops. I have six of them and can't see me parting with any. I also have expensive Gibson's that I like. I don't think there are any better sounding electric archtops than the L5 and ES175. And then there's my nice utility Korean made D'Angelico. And Japanese Fender and Alvarez Yairi, many US made flat tops, and a few guitars that I have no idea where they were made.

Why should I mix the political interests of the US with my guitar buying? Because.. it will make any difference to the world order? Because it will restore my faith in US politics as being something other than a self serving bog of mendacity? Because.. that'll show them.. whoever 'them' is.

Nope. I'm a capitalist and libertarian. Show me a good value that doesn't duplicate something I already have and I'll see if I can't make room for it.