Death of USA made guitars

[Christian Miller]

Non sweatshop labour is expensive.

Aside from the Boomers who want to be Clapton or whatever, Japan is considered the premium manufacturer by contemporary style players. But I still think the US has a cache despite changing trends.

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[Christian Miller]

The demise of budget to midrange priced guitars manufactured in the U.S. happened or at least began a long time ago. Now only the high-end models are made in the U.S. PRS and Musicman both have lines of lower priced models manufactured in Asia.

So, yes, we have seen the death of affordable USA made guitars.

In fact, what we are actually seeing is a cratering of wages in real terms. US made guitars are no more expensive than they ever were.


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[Banksia]

what made me start wundering was i was in two diferant music store recently probably for the first time in many many years and not one USA made guitar to be found i was a bit shocked. i found my why to another store that was a fender dealer and they only two one tele and one strat. no selection other than import guitars.
i figure we will allways have USA made guitar but i think they are no longer main stream.

If you watch Casino Guitars or Phil McKnight YT channels you might have your answer. I think what you saw was the result of the dealer arrangements of the big US guitar companies. Many shops can't justify the required outlay and volume to stock Fender and/or Gibson

[RJVB]

American guitars are sold worldwide at premium prices, because guitarists want to buy a piece of America.

Some maybe but I don't buy it as a general rule. At most what they want is to have an instrument played by an idol (or because (they think) it has the sound they want), who may have picked that instrument because it was played by one of their idols (or because (they thought) it had the sound they wanted).

Also ... all guitarists don't play steel-strung instruments and those who don't definitely don't look to the USA for the most part

Many shops can't justify the required outlay and volume to stock Fender and/or Gibson

Out of curiosity, could you order one through them?

[Banksia]

Fender has these US made guitars listed at $1400

American Performer Stratocaster(R) | Electric Guitars

American Performer Telecaster(R) | Electric Guitars

The complete line

American Performer | Fender


Gibsons lower priced US guitars

Under $2500 | Gibson


Finding one of these in stock could be the challenge.

To be a bit pedantic, there are no Made in USA Fenders anymore. (Certainly electrics.) Fenders just say "Corona CA" these days because they have too much imported content to qualify for "Made in USA" under California law. I don't know which parts are imported, maybe the necks are from Mexico or the tuners are made in Korea or something.

[Banksia]

Some maybe but I don't buy it as a general rule. At most what they want is to have an instrument played by an idol (or because (they think) it has the sound they want), who may have picked that instrument because it was played by one of their idols (or because (they thought) it had the sound they wanted).

Also ... all guitarists don't play steel-strung instruments and those who don't definitely don't look to the USA for the most part



Out of curiosity, could you order one through them?

I don't know. Some of the US manufacturers treat their dealers pretty badly. For example PRS won't let their dealers advertise discount prices but PRS themselves were discounting prices on their own website for direct sales.

[jim777]

All but 1 of my 17 guitars were under $2200, and the overwhelming majority are Japanese. Japanese guitars are well priced and extremely consistent. That said, I play 2 guitars in my rock 'dad band' and both are US made (a Tele and an EBMM) because 1 has humbuckers and a piezo and the other is a Tele

If I had $1500 and needed an LP I wouldn't even bother looking at Gibson though, I'd go straight to Tokai. But you definitely don't need to spend $1500 to get a super high quality bolt on guitar, you just have to look a bit.

To be a bit pedantic, there are no Made in USA Fenders anymore. (Certainly electrics.) Fenders just say "Corona CA" these days because they have too much imported content to qualify for "Made in USA" under California law. I don't know which parts are imported, maybe the necks are from Mexico or the tuners are made in Korea or something.

This is true - a California made guitar is not allowed to say "Made in USA" unless every single solitary bit of that guitar is made in the USA. That law has already made the prices of used "Made in USA" Jacksons go up, and they will absolutely continue to go up.

[m_d]

That would be very sad for US manufacturing. I have no way to tell what's really going on, and if regulations and labor are mostly to blame, but I will simply note there's a constant tendency everywhere in the West, now for decades, to blame workers for being too expensive, and that any claim of workers to being treated decently is somehow socialistic anathema... it's a bit of a scoundrel mentality that in my opinion needs to stop. Visiting Japan with my family during the Easter break, I was super impressed by everything I saw and experienced in that country. The quality of life is off the charts, including in mega-cities like Tokyo and Osaka. Zero crime, zero drugs, everything squeaky clean. It may well be, in my opinion, the most advanced country in the world. Among its many virtues, it has remained an industrial powerhouse - by choice. Workers are respected - by choice. Work ethics are paramount and a culture of quality and service pervades everything.

Back to guitars: there are rumors of Gibson wanting to increase their prices even more, the new higher quality Epiphones being preparation for that; meanwhile, the Japanese are making guitars of equivalent quality for literally half the price. How is that possible ? I have one Japanese guitar, an Ibanez, which is a simply stunning instrument. Are regulations and labor costs that much lower in Japan ? And I know, a Gibson is a Gisbon, but quality-wise, Japanese stuff is second to none, and doesn't cut any corners, and musically, it may well often be different, but in no way inferior - simply different. I have an answer intuitively to that question about costs that I can't verify : it is my impression that as a societal choice the Japanese are simpliy treating each other better than "we in the West" are, which generates positivity, efficiency and a sense of common purpose; one of the corollaries of that being that corporate greed is much more contained; combine to that a commitment to hard work and technical/engineering excellence and you have a winner. They once were inspired by the West; we would do well to return the favor.

[Christian Miller]

I don't know. Some of the US manufacturers treat their dealers pretty badly. For example PRS won't let their dealers advertise discount prices but PRS themselves were discounting prices on their own website for direct sales.

Not just US. It’s increasingly difficult to qualify as a Yamaha dealer. Which is a shame because I recommend Yamaha to beginners.


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[pan60]

To be a bit pedantic, there are no Made in USA Fenders anymore. (Certainly electrics.) Fenders just say "Corona CA" these days because they have too much imported content to qualify for "Made in USA" under California law. I don't know which parts are imported, maybe the necks are from Mexico or the tuners are made in Korea or something.

i dont know this for a fact but i was told years ago that the USA fenders where simply assybled in the USA and that only the Custom shop guitars where USA made and many of those where just assymbled?
no clue i have been out of it for years.

G&L use to be USA made but now days most of what they sell in an import or at leats what i have seen here the G&L dealer had zero USA made G&ls guitars.

and some of the high end acustic guitar makers are have some of their line made off shore now.
it is the times

at its about high end production guitars, i am not talking quality luthier made guitars at all we will allways have thise i beleave?
its easy to say there still around but there are NOT around here.
i could mail oder one but at the end of the day i could not go to town and have the opertunety to play a few guitars and picl the i want for one reason or another. if i want a nice guitar i can get one but if i want a nice USA made guitar well i no longer have that option other than mail order so for me the USA made guitar is for all practical purposes dead.

maybe dead is not the word to use maybe the decline?
at anyrate i find it disheartening : (

[John A.]

I doubt Gibson's prices being higher than comparable quality Japanese guitars has much to do with differences in labor costs in Japan and the US. It think it's simply that people are willing to pay higher prices for what they perceive as a Gibson's greater value. Gibson is very good at reinforcing that perception, and some of us are very bad at resisting that and simply buying something that's functionally as good for less money. Gibson also has the advantage of being able to benchmark their prices for new guitars against the prices of rare vintage ones, which makes new ones seem cheap.

[Christian Miller]

I doubt Gibson's prices being higher than comparable quality Japanese guitars has much to do with differences in labor costs in Japan and the US. It think it's simply that people are willing to pay higher prices for what they perceive as a Gibson's greater value. Gibson is very good at reinforcing that perception, and some of us are very bad at resisting that and simply buying something that's functionally as good for less money. Gibson also has the advantage of being able to benchmark their prices for new guitars against the prices of rare vintage ones, which makes new ones seem cheap.

It’s not as great a difference as it used to be either… when I was shopping it was around 2000gbp for a Japanese semi hollow and 2500-2700gbp for a US one. The gap is closing.

In the end I opted for Gibson because I like the way they sound, which is different to the Japanese guitars. Also I like a nitro finish. Maybe some Japanese makers do the latter but are harder to find in the UK.

I forget the name of that Japanese company that sells guitars from the same factories Ibanez etc use but without the markup of the name. They seem to come in around 500gbp cheaper iirc.

Edit: FGN - ie Fujigen.

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[Bluedawg]

This is true - a California made guitar is not allowed to say "Made in USA" unless every single solitary bit of that guitar is made in the USA. That law has already made the prices of used "Made in USA" Jacksons go up, and they will absolutely continue to go up.

Yikes!

Sounds to me like another instance of good intentions paving the road to heck. California seems to be good at that.

Maybe Fender should move their manufacturing to Tennessee, too. I would say Arizona, but the Californians escaping Cali to move to AZ appear to be trying to turn AZ into another California.

"Every single solitary bit" is a little too much IMHO. Gibson has been using German made products on their guitars for decades. That law could make them not "Made in the USA" just for using Schaller tuning heads and bridge assemblies.

Would be nice to know what percentage of the "Corona, CA" Fenders are made outside the US.

[Bluedawg]

And it seems to me that "Made in Japan" guitars are going down the same path as "Made in the USA" guitars.

When I look into an affordable "Japanese" guitar it's usually not actually made in Japan either. The ones actually made in Japan are only slightly less than and sometimes more than the guitars actually made in the USA.


That said ... my Indonesian made Sire M7 bass and PRS Zach Myers are excellent.

[jads57]

Well the good news is there more guitars available both new and used,cheap and bespoke than at any time in history. The real problem is there not a lot of good paying gigs to play any longer!

[Mick-7]

Fenders just say "Corona CA" these days because they have too much imported content to qualify for "Made in USA" under California law.

It's not a state (CA) law, it's a federal law: Made in USA | Federal Trade Commission

[jim777]

It's not a state (CA) law, it's a federal law: Made in USA | Federal Trade Commission

That makes it worse! But thanks for the correction

[pan60]

The real problem is there not a lot of good paying gigs to play any longer!

thats a fact
around here the giggs pay less the half of what i was getting 30, 40 years ago.

[Stringswinger]

My Gibson guitars have Asian made tuners and Canadian made cases.

My Fender guitars have Asian made tuners and Asian made cases.

The Pots on all of these guitars are probably Asian made.

Globalization. It's a thing......

My 1995 American Standard Strat does say Made in the USA on the headstock. Do current American made Strats and Teles not say that anymore?

[Stringswinger]

Well the good news is there more guitars available both new and used,cheap and bespoke than at any time in history. The real problem is there not a lot of good paying gigs to play any longer!

Too many musicians and not enough young people who value music enough to pay for it creates a problem for working musicians. Just as too many cheap, imported guitars has created a problem for US guitar companies for decades. But the US guitar industry continues.

In my stable of guitars is a Fender American Strat (a new one would cost $1800) and a Gibson Les Paul Studio (a new one would cost $1700). Both are exceptionally good electric guitars and suitable for professional use. And guess what? Ain't nothing like the real thing baby. And as long as there are cats like me who will not settle for anything less than the real thing, US guitar manufacturing will continue.

As it should.

[deacon Mark]

It reminds me of the great beer drinking culture. At one time Germany, Belgium, and some parts of Europe the center of great original beers. That has now actually been taken over and right now in the US we have some of the best and most important beers in world. While some of the originals exist, we now have in the US genuine beers that distinctly have become American. Think of West Coast Pale Ales and IPA's as well as new versions that are way above the original inspirations. Newcastle Brown Ale was considered one of the best ever but now I can name many better Brown Ales from the US. Miles above in taste and development.

I suppose it could happen in guitars, but it will take longer. The analogy is maybe valid but weak I suppose.

[Bluedawg]

My Gibson guitars have Asian made tuners and Canadian made cases.

My Fender guitars have Asian made tuners and Asian made cases.

The Pots on all of these guitars are probably Asian made.

Globalization. It's a thing......

My 1995 American Standard Strat does say Made in the USA on the headstock. Do current American made Strats and Teles not say that anymore?

If you go to the Fender web site and zoom in on the back of the headstock pictures they say "Corona, California."

[pan60]

If you go to the Fender web site and zoom in on the back of the headstock pictures they say "Corona, California."

i just looked at three of my strat and one ofthe teles and they all say made in USA but they not new i think the tele is maybe ten years old its the newer of these thta are handy at the moment.
but even most of what i have i was told by a friend ( and it could be total B.S. but i have reason to beleave him ) that these where all made with part coming from mexico?
i have no clue not that it matter i have played the made in mexico guitars and have no issues with them but i do like and buy the USA made stuff for the most part.

[Doctor Jeff]

If a shop wants to be an official Gibson dealer they have to commit to making large annual purchases that include high end models that are hard to sell, plus they're not allowed to advertise discounted prices. I have had a number of shop owners tell me they stopped carrying new Gibsons because of the difficult terms. For the typical "mom and pop" local music store in an area that doesn't have a whole lot of wealthy potential customers it's basically not practical to sell Gibsons. From what I've heard, Fender's terms are easier, but there are still minimum buys. On top of that, Fender is moving pretty aggressively into selling directly and not going through dealers, which makes them less attractive to dealers. All of that adds up to seeing fewer and fewer Gibsons and Fenders in stores outside of major markets and chain stores, but it doesn't mean they're making fewer guitars.

Several small shop owners I know have had their ups and downs with Gibson. No one says that dealing with them is fun.

Even Dave's Guitars--arguably one of the largest single-store Gibson sellers in the country--stopped carrying Gibson for a couple of years, though they "made up"--not sure if this was before or after Henry J left.

I haven't been into too many stores that don't have Fenders. MIA Fenders may be more rare, but in some stores those are the highest-end guitars they carry.

Other countries have of course "cracked the code" for making decent guitars, at a lower price. It isn't just the wages, which is probably no more than 25% of a guitar's cost, but other factors. Chinese workers btw no longer fit the image of sweatshop employees. Their wages are on par with some EU countries and about 5 times those of Mexican workers.

[Christian Miller]

The kids do seem to be into PRS and Keisel atm - which, correct me if I’m wrong - but building guitars in the US? Keisel do a good deal and are great for the Djent community. PRS have Mayer (the Silver Sky has done gangbusters, and no I don’t get it either haha.)

So there’s that.

No one under 40 much uses a Gibson. Fenders are still popular.


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