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There're lots of videos on YouTube about people having their guitars plek'd but none of them are archtops that I've seen. Just wondering if anybody's had the experience. I just had my Eastman Elite refreted and the guy did a horrible job. There are only two luthiers in my area, one that's okay and this new guy, so I started trying to think of alternatives and had the idea of sending it to get plek'd. Also if anybody knows of a good place to get it done that would be helpful. Apparently the skill of the person operating the machine has a lot to do with how good it comes out. I'm going to Denver soon and Maximum guitar in Denver has one but I don't know how good they are. You can apparently ship your guitar to any of the places in the United States that have one. Any experience anyone has had would be interesting to hear.
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04-28-2024 07:26 PM
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Yes, I had my 175 pleked. It came out pretty good.
But about a month earlier I had a 335 type guitar fret dressed by a skilled tech and it was just as good.
And I even think the set up (not related to plek) was better because that guy seemed more used to archtops and jazz guitarists.
(Unfortunately (for me, not him) that guy retired very recently)
The plek costed around 25% more if I remember correctly.
If you're talking about a refret job, I don't know if the plek machine is involved in anything other than the fret leveling part? Does it also do fret edges?
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Shipping and a guitar to get it plected sounds crazy to me. You add the exposure of shipping damage to a job that can be done competently by someone within driving distance.
Originally Posted by voyage
It cost a lot more money and the results should not be any different than a good repair person should do. Granted some dressings are less than idea or a screw up. Don’t compound the problem with shipping to get it plect’d.
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I’ve played several plek’d guitars. Mileage may vary. There’s a steep learning curve for the machine’s operator. Fretwork and set-up done by a good tech who actually plays guitar him/herself feels better to me than a plek job. I’d rate plek about the same as a tech who doesn’t play, assuming the operator is competent.
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I had a Plek done at Gary Brawer's shop on a Godin Multiac Nylon.
It was no better after the Plek -- the tech who worked on it just prior did as good a job. It was pleked because of a buzzy string which turned out to be the string, not the guitar.
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Digital procedures are currently recommended as a panacea for all sorts of problems that humanity is facing.
In fact, they offer fantastic opportunities in the areas of research, science and certainly in some areas of production.
However, when it comes to high and highest quality fretwork on guitars, especially refrets, nothing beats precise handwork.
Consider for a moment: Stradivari, Guarneri, et al., made phantastic musical instruments. After three centuries, today in the digital age, globally, one or two dozen of luthiers are able to achieve the same quality, but all of them are working by hand, largely using the same old tools and methods.
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Maybe, it's because Digital Machines don't have ears. Originally Posted by Ol' Fret
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Ouch! that's an expensive buzz fix. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Bah, humbug! Originally Posted by Ol' Fret
If we skip the question how you'd even quantify quality objectively there's still the question that you simply can't know all the luthiers who achieve that level (esp. not if you take the 300 year aspect into account 
). There are simply too many violinists and too many luthiers. Some of whom may well use digital techniques if they can afford to have, say, a CNC machine to do the initial carving of the plates. And I wouldn't be surprised if many ordered mass-produced bridges.
Oh, and they didn't have to bother with frets (that the instrument owners couldn't simply replace themselves)
Jokes aside, just like guitar builders can make instruments with great potential but kinda suck at the set-up aspect (including getting the frets just right), Strad et al. may also have been less talented in that department. We simply can't know this - what we do know is that they didn't gain their reputation overnight. Back then there were no internet forums where people would tell each other that such-and-so really made these wonderful violins, but you'd have to expect to redo the nut, bridge or fingerboard by your "local tech"
FWIW: see the remarks about scroll and f-hole carving here: Giuseppe Guarneri - Wikipedia . Both characteristics a luthier will look at first to appraise the quality of workmanship of an instrument.
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What makes you say the refret is horrible? Did you try taking it back to the luthier who did it to get it corrected? Originally Posted by voyage
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I'm concerned that the guy that refretted it did not plane the fingerboard properly. At maximum guitar they said the Plek will tell them if this is a problem, and in that case it would be another $250 to pull the frets, have the fingerboard planed, and put in new stainless frets. So no, the Plek appears not able to do any kind of refretting work.
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I took him a guitar with very low action as an example of what I wanted. He gave it back to me with very high action. When I lowered the action myself notes were fretting out in several places and buzzing in others. I was amazed how bad it was. Because of the nature of our interactions I did not want to go back to him. He refunded me the cost of the refret. Originally Posted by John A.
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That would be a lot to ask from a machine... Originally Posted by voyage
From what I understand a plek is a system that can detect and (probably) take out high spots, and since it's under computer control it should be able to do that without having the level the fretboard perfectly first. I'd be surprised if it can shape and polish the frets as perfectly as a human can, to be honest.
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Originally Posted by RJVB
Bah, humbug! If we skip the question how you'd even quantify quality objectively there's still the question that you simply can't know all the luthiers who achieve that level (esp. not if you take the 300 year aspect into account ). There are simply too many violinists and too many luthiers. Some of whom may well use digital techniques if they can afford to have, say, a CNC machine to do the initial carving of the plates. And I wouldn't be surprised if many ordered mass-produced bridges.
Oh, and they didn't have to bother with frets (that the instrument owners couldn't simply replace themselves)
Jokes aside, just like guitar builders can make instruments with great potential but kinda suck at the set-up aspect (including getting the frets just right), Strad et al. may also have been less talented in that department. We simply can't know this - what we do know is that they didn't gain their reputation overnight. Back then there were no internet forums where people would tell each other that such-and-so really made these wonderful violins, but you'd have to expect to redo the nut, bridge or fingerboard by your "local tech"
FWIW: see the remarks about scroll and f-hole carving here: Giuseppe Guarneri - Wikipedia . Both characteristics a luthier will look at first to appraise the quality of workmanship of an instrument.
Oh, drivel go away! I don't know of any of the top 100 or so best violin makers using CNC; it's frowned upon. Some of them would easily have the money, so they have another good reason for using slow techniques by hand: CNC can't read wood. Wood is an inhomogenous composite material. Period.
That said, it doesn't matter at all how you do the rough carving of your plates, by help of your teeth, a pocketknife or a chainsaw - you could successfully even use CNC for that. Since good violin makers do not make hundreds of instruments per year, do not make almost identical clones, but love to offer several models, vary the sizes, the thickness and arching curves, etcetc., they don't see any advantage in using CNC.
D'Aquisto still had something of the mind of good violin makers: "Just don't stop at a certain point, experiment - always experiment!" CNC machines, and its operators, don't experiment - they (manu?)facture in mass.
The same happens, in a mitigated form, with the making of finer archtop guitars. The good guys have their knowledge and experience and take their time, the hacks and the larger industry uses CNC, some of them don't know no longer about the existence of a scraper - the plates just get a final machine sanding after CNC, that's all before the instruments rush into the finishing department. Time is money, knowledge and experience were yesterday.
There's an old proverb: ad astra per aspera. Today, the trees for the making of wooden instruments are cut by help of chain saws; it would be a waist of time and man power to still use an axe or pit saw, but the fine work is done precisely by hand because machines, like a plek, can't do it in the same precise way. Admittedly, fret wire is a homogenous material, it would be more suitable than wood for a digital application. But then, the frets still sit on a (mostly) wooden fretboard which in turn rests on a (mostly) wooden neck. And wood is inhomogenous and always moving due to strings and player tensions and changes of RH.
If people don't know the differences, that's ok for me, but then, please, don't gabble about!
Yes, violin makers have not to think about fretting techniques (though fretted violins exist!), but about many, many other finer points. Did you ever watch a top violin maker working? Someone from the top league, not just the unavoidable hack around your next corner.
Yes, Guarneri (del Gesu) is said to have been a comparably "sloppy" and hasty violin maker, but he was a genius with a huge urge to experiment. Geniuses can afford to be sloppy in some points because they exactly know what is important and what is insignificant in achieving the desired result that they previously defined. That's, IMHO, the two most important points: define the goal beforehand, and then experiment.
Anyway, artifial intelligence will change everything in mass operations, and emoticons will eventually replace all real human emotions.
RVJB, I wish you to get the best AI-guitars in the future - I feel confident that you'll be a happy player!
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I've had a couple of guitars pleked, an LP and a vintage strat. Both came out great, though the LP later had to have the fingerboard loosened and reglued, a problem that apparently was there when it left the factory. I don't think they had to plek again after that and it plays great. I believe that it is useful when you don't want to have the fingerboard planed, because it's a valuable old guitar for instance.
Great luthiers and techs can do as well or better. Nothing can be as good as the way my Campellone came from Mark, just perfect in every way. But of course that was new, and there aren't many techs around that are as good as he is. In fact it seems to me that the best techs, the ones that can work on high end and vintage flat tops and arch tops, are retiring or passing on. It is very hard to find a great one now, and the ones that are around are very backed up, at least in my area.
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I wouldn't assume an unlevel board is the reason the refret job turned out badly, and I definitely wouldn't assume a Plek machine is necessary to check a fingerboard for levelness and fix it. And even if you don't level the fingerboard you can still get the fret-tops level and buzz-free if you know what you're doing. I suspect the first (lousy) guy just installed frets without leveling and crowning them (new frets are already rounded). Originally Posted by voyage
Glad you at least got your money back. I agree with Deacon Mark that shipping the guitar to get the frets corrected is not a great idea. In your shoes, I'd try harder to find someone local, or bite the bullet on some tools and take a shot at correcting the frets myself. At a minimum, I'd suggest getting a cheap notched straight edge (around $10 on Amazon) to check the levelness of the fingerboard and whether you can get it straight with and without string tension. If you can get it straight, you'll know for sure that the frets (not the board) are the issue.. Originally Posted by voyage
Last edited by John A.; 04-29-2024 at 06:07 PM.
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Yes, and I've owned one. Violins, that is, not its maker. Where do you think I got my ideas about current makers not being incapable to match the products of the old makers? Originally Posted by Ol' Fret
He doesn't have a CNC, and he and his wife always seem to be scraping a plate whenever I get to visit him. But like any truly good, established maker he doesn't care about what's frowned up or not, and I don't think he'd be above drilling out a bunch of holes to a predefined depth profile in order to ease the initial carving-out of a new one for a cello or double bass. Or maybe he would, but who cares?
I can't determine if you're trying to be a devil's advocate here too or simply misunderstand me completely.RVJB, I wish you to get the best AI-guitars in the future - I feel confident that you'll be a happy player!
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I had a very rare 1 off sweet 16 pleked by J Wolfe. It came out great and after it shipped from fla to ca all I did was adjust the action hight and it plays perfectly. At about the same time I had a refret done on a nearly identical 16 with the same neck. The refret was done by hand and was also perfectly done but actually a little nicer than the plek job. The one done by my local luthier was dressed and polished nicer the fret board was treated and it plays nicer than new and fret ends were beautifully eased. So my take away is that either way its who does the work and the plek gets it level but the final hand finish makes the difference. Given a choice my luthier wins every time but If I didnt have someone like him Id look for a plek with an established reputation on archtops and the promise of meticulous hand finishing. Either way it was money well spent, it allowed these fine guitars to be all that they can be.
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Well I searched and it said pleks don't round the fret ends so I would say try to find a good luthier. But you said there are only 2 in your area, the suck guy and an ok guy, so I understand your problem.
I would say try to find a good luthier. My fret jobs play perfectly at any action and I round the ends. Imo, that's the standard that you should shoot for when choosing a method for getting your frets done.
About the board being leveled. That's not really necessary unless it's totally jacked up. The goal is just to get the frets themselves absolutely level regardless of if there are imperfections in the board.Last edited by Bobby Timmons; 04-29-2024 at 01:39 PM.
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Originally Posted by RJVB
Your local violin makers, don't know if good or not so good ones, seem to be quite reasonable folks, though they and you must be living in different worlds.
It's not about what is frowned upon, or not, on TicToc, F***book or whatever social media en vogue; it's about what is most empirically proven for doing the best for a special job. Here it's about the results (for the player, not the biz owner) of plek-fretting vs. manual fretting. New techniques are welcome, as long as they lead to a better result; but they have to prove that: by gauging, feeling and asking the players. Please, note that quite a few players, sadly even professionals, don't know exactly how to evaluate a really exceptional fret job or get manipulated by silver-tongued marketing gurus or are simply endorsers.
Devil's advocate? I apologize to the OP because this thread isn't and shouldn't be about a forum member, but yet I like to react to such depth-psychological attributions. Yes, I like to shake some minds, in order to delve deeper into an issue, to shed more light on pros and cons, moving forward on a meaningful path. Gullibility is so en vogue in the web. It's not about creating an unanimous opinion, no, some discourse is necessary for any task-oriented progress. A bit humorous sketch and entertaining and asides are always welcome, but it all depends on the form. And for what I like, please, don't use emoticons! Most people, at least the older ones, understand ironic or humorous or look_who's_talking or whatever remarks in lines. Emoticons or substitute "feelings", like I call them, are, IMO, as unnecessary as puerile and immature comments.
Ok, to come to an end with RJVB's conjectures: somewhere in my room is a little personal "self-awareness" poem of my later life hanging; unfortunately, it's in German (but the plek-, sorry, the translator-machine might help):
Als [...] fiel's mir nie schwer
zu spielen den Dissenter Provocateur.
Ich brachte in jeden Disput
des Advocatus Diaboli Glut.
Doch nach all den Jahren dort und hier
blieb etwas stecken vom Teufel in mir.
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Best $200 I’ve ever spent. The result was the action played like butter, even with very low action on a moderately expensive guitar. Highly recommended! All with one caveat. The luthier was the best luthier in the NW.
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The plek-fretting promises to reach a theoretical precision work that - even if it were true (and it is not the case for all practical purposes) - would be irrelevant for playing.
The problem of shipping risks for the guitar or of unrounded and -worked fret endings have already been mentioned.
Then, de facto all of our fretboard radii are compound radii, on vintage guitars - and unfretted instruments of the violin and gamba family - often a bit asymmetrical, which is not a fault! It's a concession to the different gauges of the strings. It's easier to address such complex radii by hand then by plekking. Again, in theory, the machine should get more precision during the leveling process, but the machine reads the highest and lowest spots on the frets (and this depends on the precise positioning of the guitar /fretboard in relation to the sensors) with the result that often too much material gets unnecessarily removed.
Another point of plek problem can be loose or springy fret ends.
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What part of the country are you in we can usually give you repairmen to check out? Originally Posted by voyage
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Refretting a guitar is like building a house. The foundation has to be good and level. In this case it is the fingerboard. With all the frets off you can determine very precisely what is going on. The one problem that can come up is a neck that twist in some direction. If the neck itself is twisted, then things have to be look at to deal with the twist. Sometimes if it is not bad you can work around and get the frets level. A really bad twist is almost impossible to get correct. To correct a bad twist of the whole neck and fingerboard requires more than simply getting the fingerboard level. You have to actually make the fingerboard correct the twist. In this case I probably would depending on the guitar simply make is playable and then sell it cheap.
Once you get the fingerboard where you want you hammer the frets. I have tried pressing and hammering but in the end I like the way the hammer allows the ends to seat in the slot. Pressing can work but you cannot do it all the way up the neck, so I just prefer the hammer. I seat the frets at the ends start tapping in the center. Once the frets are all in then you determine what effect the compression had on the neck from fretting and mover forward. It is a cycle of constant iterations in checking and moving slow. Personally, I am slow but rather be slow and right than fast and wrong.
Pleks are like AI, great but they don't actually think for themselves.
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Las Cruces, New Mexico. 45 minutes straight north of El Paso.l/Juarez. Thanks. I'd really love to find a great luthier in New Mexico. Originally Posted by deacon Mark
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