-
Wanting to upgrade an Epiphone 335 Pro (2018), I was wondering if either of these replacement bridges would be of benefit?
I like this guitar as is. I am now using it in a Blues/rock group, my amp is a Princeton Reverb II with a nice speaker, and I have Boost and OD pedals.
So I am wondering if buying a bridge will result in any improvement? (I guess that depends on the quality of the stock bridge - right?) The studs for the bridge and tailpiece (aluminum) are steel.
The Gotoh bridges are circa $30 and the Faber are circa $90.
I know this a "trial and error" situation, but can anyone share some experiences with replacing their bridges?
I have done this in the past with other guitars, but not with Gotoh or Faber bridges, and I don't want a stainless steel bridge.
Thank you in advance for your thoughts
-
04-21-2024 06:11 PM
-
I like my Edwards guitars quite a bit but the part of them I dislike the most is the Gotoh tune-o-matic bridges. Lots of buzzing and noise on both guitars. They were quiet when new until I started putting some miles on the them. My main player became exceptionally bad. Had to tear them apart and silicone tape all the screw threads as well as using a few dabs of clear nail polish on the retainer wire to quiet them down. I am planning on going with a Faber on my main player in the not too distant future. I wouldn't even waste my time with another Gotoh unless that's all I could afford.
-
Setup of ToM-bridge system is more complicated than what most people realize and there are many things that can go wrong. A drop-in replacement doesn't really exist, you'll have to make it work and this takes experience and skills. The idea that different metals got different tones is attractive because it seems logical. But the critical factors are of different nature.
There are good reasons why a bridge may have to be replaced from time to time. The metal alloy and construction do play a part in this equation, but if it sounds different it's mainly because of other things than the "sound of the metal". For example, if you got two bridges of the same model and brand, they are probably not going to sound exactly the same.
I've got experience with many models and brands of ToM bridges and let's just say they all got pros and cons. A Faber bridge is not universally superior to a Gotoh bridge, it would depend on your routines. And on that note; I think your best option is to learn how to set up the bridge already installed on your guitar, to optimize performance of what you already got.
Now, assume that you are just curious to find out what a different bridge could do for you and your guitar, then remember this post. The end result is about bridge setup, a minute to learn a lifetime to master.
-
I like the Faber. I replaced the stock unit in my Casino with Faber Steel inserts and a locking bridge. I can’t say that it made a tonal difference, but the Faber locking system is absolutely solid. I like it much better than the TonePro system, which is a modified Gotoh bridge. My only problem is my Casino has been in pieces for a few months while I do some work on it, and I can’t seem to find the bridge any more.
-
Can you elaborate a bit on the "it would depend on your routines"?
Originally Posted by JCat
TIA
-
Setup routines, playing routines and maintenance routines; all add up and become preferences. Originally Posted by JazzNote
Ask yourself:
-What's a good guitar?
-How often do I replace strings?
-What's my preferred stringing method and why?
-How often do I re-adjust my guitar?
-What characterizes a good setup in my book?
-Where do I keep my guitars, when I'm not playing them?
-What's my preferred tuning method and why?
-What's my attitude to intonation?
....etc.
-
If everyone would start their career on a floating wooden bridge, the community would have a higher level of understanding of the benefits and drawbacks of a ToM bridge. Slotted, adjustable metal saddles and fixed bridge posts come with consequences. Locking solutions also come with consequences because a guitar setup is a temporary state.
Ask yourself:
-Does my guitar stay in tune?
-Does my guitar intonate?
-Do I have problems with deadspots, thin sounding treble strings, sitar sounds or buzzing?
-Can I play in tune and do I play much beyond 12th fret?
-What's my understanding of action?
-Is my setup stable?
-Do I rely on thumbwheels to fine tune bridge height on location/on the fly?
It must be understood, that if the unlocked bridge assembly would be rock solid tight, it would not be possible to adjust bridge slope. Bridge tilt (bridge leaning forward or backwards) is another factor with consequences.
-
I think the extent of the benefit installing a "better quality" bridge may vary by those "preferences", but having installed a couple of Faber bridges on archtops i'm quite sure there would be tonal improvement on the OP's 335, as there was when i replaced the Gibson tuneomatics on my L5 and LeGrande with Fabers. Originally Posted by JCat
-
"Quality" is never better than the actual setup (including but not limited to saddle slotting) and how the bridge responds when installed and intonated. Originally Posted by JazzNote
A ToM bridge is part of a system that also involves saddles and saddle screws, bridge posts, thumbwheels and a tailpiece. We could replace just the saddles or just the bridge body or just the bridge posts or just the tailpiece or tailpiece studs and would then have different results.
Both the Faber and the Gotoh bridge may perform better when used together with the specific bridge posts designed specifically for those bridges (depending on model). The Gotoh oversized rotating bridge posts as well as the Faber insert posts may be regarded as an improvement over regular Gibson Nashville rotating bridge posts.
I've got all these systems in use on different guitars. None is a "drop-in" replacement.
-
we can get philosophical about everything, but if it comes to an instrument it's the sound which counts and for that the choice of quality components always matters. IMHO the necessity to have them matched and adjusted to the "instruments, and setups needs" is so obvious that it does not need to be mentioned in the equation. Originally Posted by JCat
-
That's the difficult part and I don't think it's that obvious, especially when considering the multitude of problems people are dealing with. Just look around and you'll find that people don't know how to setup a bridge and don't have the tools. It's not a drop-in replacement. Originally Posted by JazzNote
-
The Faber bridge and a Kluson aluminum tailpiece were certainly drop-in for me, but maybe I was lucky. Originally Posted by JCat
When you talk about setup, are you referring to the channels the strings pass through?
I have found the rest of it to be pretty straight forward (intonation etc), but I have been doing that for many years. I agree that learning how to set up a guitar in general (neck relief etc) is a very good thing for folks to learn, I wish I was better at it.
I felt there was an improvement over regular Gibson parts. The metal composition more closely resembles the original '50's parts. Part of it may have been wear on the original parts though.
-
The Faber comes prenotched and is a drop in replacement. I have them on L-5’s and S400’s and they are far superior than stock. 1st order you get 20% off and every holiday.
They are made in Germany. Very high quality. Very nice plating also.
-
All my guitars have ebony or rosewood bridges/saddles. That is all I need enough said, at least for me. It is all in the eyes of the beholder.
-
You don't say whether the original TOM bridge is an ABR-1 or a Nashville style bridge. The ABR-1 has a retaining wire to keep the screws and saddles in place when the strings are off; the Nashville does not. When you look down at the top of the bridge, the Nashville is a little fatter looking. Make sure you get the correct replacement.
I recently replaced the ABR-1 on my Gibson ES-175 with an ABR-1 compatible bridge from Kluson with nylon saddles. The stock bridge was a little too twangy for my tastes. There is no retaining wire on the Kluson, which eliminates an annoying source of rattles. I did have to notch the saddles for the strings, which is not unusual with replacement bridges. I am much happier with the sound of the instrument after making this change.
-
Faber makes both the ABR-1 and Nashville. Nether have a retaining wire. Very precise also. Fine threads and solid brass. Not sloppy and rattly like the stock pot metal version. The adjustment screws are locked in with C-clips on each screw. If you want even better go KMZ but they are $200.
-
I thank everyone for their comments and knowledge.
I have worked on guitars and made changes that usually improve the instruments. Pickups, pots, switches, tailpieces and bridges, careful to be able to reverse a change if the desired result is not achieved. One of my most dramatic improvements involved changing a tailpiece and bridges, plus the bridge posts on a semi-hollow. AN expensive SS bridge made the guitar bright and it lost the semi-hollow character. Back to the stock bridge but I altered and changed the bridge posts. Made a big diff and I learned a lot about using diff metals in the parts.
So no more SS for me. I am just wondering what a new bridge will do for my Epi 335? And of course...which one?
-
Exhibit 1
"Prenotched" doesn't mean we are good to go. It just means that we don't have to notch the saddles ourselves prior to slotting. Also note that "prenotched" always means that the slots get centered and that there are situations when this isn't ideal. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
* * *
Assume a bridge of solid gold. If you think of it as an "upgrade", that's guitar-owner mentality.
Assume a vintage ABR-1 bridge of aluminum. If you think of it as an "upgrade", that's collector mentality.
Assume a bridge in good condition and well setup. If you feel the need to put the guitar on the work bench, that's tech mentality.
Assume a worn out bridge that is replaced with a brand new bridge. If you think of it as maintenance, you're on the right track.
Assume that you would be able to appreciate a good bridge setup. That's player mentality.
-
The tailpiece assembly is part of the system. There are several factors to consider when setting up a stop tailpiece, especially when the guitar got a carved top or an arched top like a semi. Originally Posted by bluejaybill
The shape (geometry) of various tailpieces and studs differ, and so do the position of the holes drilled for the stud bushings.
Many times a tailpiece replacement is indeed a drop-in replacement, but not always, due to spec and tolerance. In particular one must pay attention when the guitar got flanged stud bushings.
Experimenting with different tailpieces could be rewarding, but we still have to get the string break angle right.
The not so straight forward task is to set up the bridge assembly. This is never a drop-in replacement.
-
I feel that there is a fair bit of an overgeneralization in this list, though I agree that the bridge is mostly a maintenance item. Originally Posted by JCat
Speaking as a player, I definitely think that the composition of the bridge is very important and affects the tone quite a bit. Remember when we all used to put brass bridges on everything? What a tone killing exercise that was!
And yet a classic era Gibson ABR had (nickel plated) brass saddles, while the body is a zinc/aluminum blend if memory serves. In my mind, and to my ear, that combination is the best sounding from a "player" mentality, and the "collector" would probably agree. Maybe the "guitar owner" and the "tech" as well. Speaking of the Faber, that is what it their ABR is made of. Maybe not exactly the same, but close. While we are at it, an aluminum tailpiece and if possible nickel plated brass posts for me as well.
I consider myself a player first, but also a collector, owner, primary tech guy, geek, etc.
-
How about this: on my Epiphone Lucille, with a decent semi-hollow tone that rivaled my buddy's '64 ES 345 with stock p/ups,
On the gig, the pickups didn't cut through. So, I put a 57 Classic + into the br. position, Great. In the neck position, I put a 57 Classic. Not so good - muddy. So I put in a Guild DeArmond from the 90's (Alnico V) Great.
But the wound strings still had a lack of cut, definition. I bought a SS bridge and it wiped out the semi-hollow vibe. It was TOO bright. I went back to the stock EPI bridge!
Following the "Mapleflame" theory on the LPF, I put stainless steel posts under the bridge. I already put on an aluminum TP and that was a huge improvement. The SS (screws) posts helped the wound strings immensely, but not the plain strings.
So, I put back the original brass bridge post on the treble side and kept the SS screw on the bass side. I was very satisfied with my results. I then raised and lowered the Al TP to suit. Low and tight on on the bass side, up high and airy on the treble side.
Talk about trial and error, and using one's ears. But I don't think I want to go this route again on my 335. Too much time spent!
-
Bridge saddles and bridge body are often of different material. In the 60s for a while Gibson used Nylon saddles and apparently a member above uses wooden saddles. There are Titanium saddles and non-plated brass saddles and various alloys. And yes, they are different. One such apparent difference is hardness, affecting not only wear resistance but also the difficulty in making good slots. Originally Posted by bluejaybill
The bridge body holding the saddles is often made of some alloy, mostly Zamak, but sometimes steel (like the Schaller wide travel bridge). The bridge body is more or less resilient to deformation (sag and flex) due to construction (material and design).
The bridge posts are often made of some alloy, sometimes brass, and sometimes steel. Threaded thumbwheels (often brass) wear and tilt.
Steel is resilient to permanent deformation, but also elastic. Aluminum is not.
Most of the time it's impossible to tell why (if at all) the sound changes when we combine different parts. The notion that different metals got different sound is attractive (and true from a perspective) but what absolutely and without exception will always make a difference is how the system is going to react under string pressure and that the saddles are slotted with the same meticulous precision as the nut for the guitar to intonate (so that it can be tuned, played in tune and stay in tune).
When the bridge has gone flat and the strings are buzzing in the slots or binding (making saddles lift and rattle) every metal sounds like... poop.
The Faber saddle screws are tighter than most (good!) but not fail safe. Brass saddle threads get worn. Also, if you flip any saddle around, make sure you put the little clip back in place...
Until we've explored the pros and cons of a floating wooden bridge, as well as the pros and cons of individually height adjustable saddles (Fender) our training is not complete.
-
But you learned something and that's part of the journey. Pat Metheny said "a new guitar is a commitment". I'm not sure exactly what he meant, but to me it means that I know that if I decide to pick up a new instrument I'll have to learn it inside out, to make it mine, a part of me. If I'm not prepared to do that, then I probably shouldn't set my expectations high. Originally Posted by Jimmy Mack
We love our Epi's and then have to get "the real deal" (It's a clever business modell). It may take some time to make a new guitar perform. Eventually you'll get there and rest assured that when you arrive, you've learned everything about your guitar (that at that time won't be new to you anymore).
A little tweaking from time to time probably won't hurt. I mean this is what we do, right? "I wonder what would happen if..." is business as usual in the community. One change at the time, patience. Let the guitar settle in and reevaluate. But if we tweak more than we play, we're not doing it right.
A bridge replacement could be somewhat "intrusive" and chances are you'll have to change other setup parameters in the process, meaning it won't be one step at the time. When you're done it may not be obvious why there was (or wasn't) any improvement.
Note: The traditional Epi fretboard radius is 14". Every replacement bridge on the market got nominal radius 12".
Tip: It's possible to replace the bridge without removing the strings, for quick temporary assessment. (But it's obviously not possible to replace the tailpiece without removing the strings).Last edited by JCat; 04-24-2024 at 05:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
Ibanez PM-120 sound check
Today, 11:18 AM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos