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I'm wondering how does an attenuator really work: my fender tone master twin reverb set on 5 W attenuator and with the volume knob on 5 or 6 is loud enough (and still clean) in a loud hammond trio (with drums) playing jazz, funk and R'n'B.
Are those some "real" 5Watts or is it just "symbolic"?
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04-20-2024 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by gianluca
Don't forget that the Twin has 2 x 12" speakers. Take that same amp and hook it up to one 8" speaker-guess which one is considerably louder.
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you mean that a one speaker low wattage amp, such as a 12 watts princeton (tube or tone master), could be not loud enough? Originally Posted by Doug B
I never condidered that amp for its 12w as I play mainly weekly gigs on little stages with no PA; but now I’m curious…
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I think you have a different idea for what a loud gig is if you only need 5 watts.
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I’ve played the tone master twin a number of times and to keep up with an 8 piece I’ve needed the “attenuator” at full power and vol at 4.
FWIW the attenuator is just a master volume with better branding. There’s no need for a traditional power attenuator in a digital amp.
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it is always shocking how loud
5 watts can be with an efficient cabinet ….
try 5 watts into a marshall 4x12
at some point (and stand back)
———————
history
in the olden days PA used to be
about speaker efficency
big boxes , horns etc
low wattage amps
Big SPLs
then huge Amps became cost
effective , 1000watt amps etc
and speaker systems became smaller/ lighter (and less efficient …. but that didn’t matter because the amps were
huge wattage )
again Big SPLs
then Huge amps became smaller
and much more efficient ….
the trend in Jazz guitar amps
has taken advantage and has gone to high wattage with
low efficiency small cabinets
Henriksen , Mambo etc etc
of course the Twin reverb type
amps are rightly still very popular (if you can pick ‘em up)
….Last edited by pingu; 04-21-2024 at 11:22 AM.
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No, I meant that using the Twin with 2x12 speakers would push far more air than the Twin with an 8" speaker. Don't forget the speaker, that's all. Originally Posted by gianluca
I forget-does the Princeton have a speaker out? If so, hook up a 2x12 cab to it.
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I prefer to keep the setting at 85watts as there is a tonal difference in how it sounds. YMMV. Originally Posted by gianluca
As for volume, the speakers and cabinet make a huge difference. I would never try to play in a loud group with my Princeton if I wanted a big sonic footprint. Fortunately, my gigs are not very loud, so the Princeton gets the call most of the time.
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Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
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It can be all over the place!
I had a 1981 Fender Super Champ with a 10" speaker. I was not crazy about it, it sounds small, so on a gig , I plugged it into a 2-12 cab, and it still sounded small.
My Princeton Reverb with an efficient 10" speaker has plenty of volume (even with a drummer) I was asked several times to turn down! But it has good tubes, an Eminence Speaker (Legend 1058) and good transformers.
Trial and error???
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thanks for the feedback; Originally Posted by Jimmy Mack
yes, try first is always a good advice, but often products are not available at local stores, so trial and error could mean buy on line ad send it back if you don’t like, annoying activity to me…
and, yes, how set above, maybe my “loud” gigs are not so loud, but an hammond with drums playing funk is pretty loud to me: people in a 50 places pub can barely conversate.
one question could be how does the tone master compare with the real thing as loudness: my tone master twin looks very close to the original.
And fender says the princeton TM is 50w rms: it sounds loud enough…
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My understanding is that the "attenuator" in a the tone master amps is not an actual attenuator. Originally Posted by gianluca
How a tube amp volume knob works is basically that the amp has different sound characteristics depending on how loud it is. Guitarists sometimes put an attenuator between the amp and the speaker to get the "loud amp" sound characteristic at a lower volume. Because guitarists are familiar with the concept of using an attenuator, I think that the term attenuate is used in the manual so guitarists will immediately understand the function of this dial (note that the dial is called "output power" but the manual uses the words "attenuated wattage settings" in the description for it). The function and the result of this dial is the same as using an attenuator but what happens on the inside is a bit different.
How the tone master works is that the sound characteristic of the tube amp is modelled digitally, and this digital model takes the volume knob setting into account and replicates the slightly different sound character for each volume knob setting. After all the digital modelling is done the result signal is output on a DAC and input into the tonemasters power amp section. The tone master power seciton is a solid sate off the shelf module called ICEpower. This ICEpower module has a few operation modes, you can use an electrical signal to control you much you want to (power) amplify.
(this is a bit of a simplified description to make it easier to understand, there are many opportunities for various "well actually" if you want to get into details rather than main point).
All amps have this phenomenon that the watts don't correlate linearly with how loud you perceive the volume of the sound.Are those some "real" 5Watts or is it just "symbolic"?
Watt numbers of commercial products can be a bit confusing, and measured in different ways. It could be that the full 85W setting is not going to give you a 85W signal if you measure it on full volume, but that is just supposed to have the same perceived volume as a 85W blacface twin, and the 5W setting might be that they're going for being as load as a 5W guitar tube amp.
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There is the old adage too, to double the perceived volume coming from an amp you would have to increase the power by 10 times. So to double the volume of a 10W amp you would need a 100W amp. Or to put it another way round, a 10W amp is still half as loud as a 100W amp. Copied from the web.
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Originally Posted by orri
This is an important factor. The numbers on the attenuator do not correspond with the actual wattage of the power amp. The Tone Master Twin Reverb is a 200 watt class D amp that is designed to "feel" as loud as an 85 watt tube amp. Many people talk about "tube watts versus solid state watts". Pat Quilter (founder of QSC and Quilter Labs) swears that "watts are watts" and that's why the Quilter Superblocks are rated at 25 watts and really are as loud as a Deluxe Reverb. I guess I get where he's coming from, but experience tells us all that tube amps certainly feel louder. A 5 watt tube amp with the right speaker can keep up in a rehearsal. I've never met a 5 watt solid state amp that can do the same thing (again, the 5 watt setting on the TMTR attenuator is meant to mean "as loud as a 5 watt tube amp"). It seems that the reason why this is the case has to do with the smoother, more gradual clipping of tubes versus the sharp, sudden solid state clipping.
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thank you, very clear. Originally Posted by andrew
I must agree with "is meant to mean "as loud as a 5 watt tube amp".
I wonder if anyone here has experienced rehearsals or small (but loud) gigs with a light weight, nice tone, princeton tone master...
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Attenuator might be the wrong term, but master volume kind of is, too. In a tube amp, the power section is intended to have color/character. The pre-amp and master volume interact with each other and affect the blend of pre-amp and power-amp character in the overall tone. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
In modelers that use class D power amp sections, the power amp is not intended to have any character. In the case of a model of a non-MV amp like a TM TR or PR, the "gain" knob is intended to behave like the sole volume control on the real thing, and the "attenuator" volume is intended to just set overall loudness. Which (come to think of it) is kind of how an attenuator behaves, so maybe it's not the wrong term after all.
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This whole amp is just a chip running DSP software. If you want to call it something based on the behavior that the software emulates rather than the physical implementation of the amp, go ahead. I'm just calling out that there's no physical attenuator being used. An attenuator usually sits between the amp output (speaker out) and the speaker. The most common type of attenuator used in guitar amplifiers is the voltage divider attenuator. This circuit consists of resistors arranged in series with the signal path, effectively dividing the input signal voltage and allowing only a portion of it to pass through to the amplifier. The amount of attenuation is determined by the ratio of the resistances in the attenuator circuit.
When a guitar signal passes through the attenuator, the resistors dissipate some of the signal's energy as heat, resulting in a lower voltage being fed to the amplifier. This reduction in signal power effectively lowers the volume of the output without affecting the tone or introducing unwanted artifacts.
None of that is implemented in this amp. I'd call it an attenuator emulation, not an actual attenuator. Just as the reverb is an emulated spring reverb, not an actual spring reverb.Last edited by omphalopsychos; 04-22-2024 at 06:26 PM.
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I know next to nothing about guitar amps but I do know that a 5W amp could mean it can peak at 5W, give 5W "RMS" or 5W continuously. Those don't give the same result and will probably have varying success at driving a set of big speakers too.
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It's possible that you could make that work, but if it's the same volume as a regular Princeton, I would have trouble with any Hammond B3 player I have ever played with- they are uniformly very loud where I come from! A nasty and unruly bunch to be sure! Maybe (hopefully!) not as loud where you are! Originally Posted by gianluca
For my purposes at that type of gig, I would want more headroom than a Princeton has, and maybe even than a Deluxe Reverb has. A BFDR was my main gigging amp for years and often wasn't loud enough for clean playing. Nowadays everyone plays softer now though, so there is that.
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Not the power amp stage. That’s an analog class d amplifier Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
The amps we’re talking about have physical knobs that lower the output of an analog amp. There may a DSP aspect of how it does that but it’s not emulation of reduced output. It’s reduced output. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
You’re conflating attenuator and load box. An attenuator is anything that attenuates, e.g., a volume control. In order to attenuate the output of a tube amp you need a load, but that doesn’t make something that reduces the output of a class d amp not an attenuator. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
If you think the word “attenuator” can only be applied to a specific device that both acts as a load and attenuates output, OK, I won’t die on that hill. But my point is simply that the “attenuator” knob on a TM amp is
closer in function to an Attenuator (a registered trademark of OmphalopsychosCorp) than it is to a MV as typically implemented on a tube amp. FWIW, quilter calls its version of this knob “speaker output,” which is maybe a more graceful term.
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You can think of the attenuator in a TM Twin as a knob to select several different wattage “models” of a Twin. A tube Twin can break up at very high volumes. The attenuator feature allows you to achieve those type of characteristics at lower volumes. Allows the user to approximate the feel of an attenuated tube Twin. For clean sounds, why not leave it on full “wattage”?
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When I'm playing my TM Twin in a small room, I'm dialing the "Attenuator" selector down to max. 45W, better 22W and the vol. around 4-5. Originally Posted by Zigracer
It sounds different to max. power selection and the vol. around 3. With the latter, it's much more harshness in the tone which can't be reduced complete by rolling down the treble control.
But with reduced power and higher vol. knob setting I can get that smooth and rich tone I'm looking for. I suppose the modelling 'computer' inside does something more than only regulating the volume when dialing the vol. control knob.
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I agree with the above post: my idea is that for a full warm creamy smooth twin reverb tone you have to push it just a step before it breaks up; to me its right volume level is between 5 and 6.
the mids to 8 or 9 is still a good setup for live with other instruments, at least with the 335;
the L5 or the 175 need less mids to me…
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That's the intention. Originally Posted by bluenote61
A twin reverb tube amp doesn't sound the same with the volume knob at 2 and with the volume knob at 10 (apart from the fact that the volume will be vastly different). With the volume at 10 you're pushing the tubes much harder and that gives you a different sound character.
If you set the "output power" dial on the tonemaster twin to 85W, it's intended to sound like a Twin reverb tube amp on all volume knob settings.
If you set the the "output power" dial on the tonemaster twin to 5W, and volume knob to 10, It's supposed to sound like a twin reverb tube amp with the volume knob at 10, but at a lower volume.
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I agree. I wasn’t clear in what I wrote. I scale my TM Twin down for similar reasons. However, I also play through a tube ‘59 Bassman RI with enough power to shake the nails out of my house. I play that at lower volumes and get such beautiful tone out of it. I’ve also played a couple of tube Twins over the years and was able to get very nice sound at lower volumes as well. So I guess what I was trying to say to anyone is “why not try it at low volumes and see what you get?” Originally Posted by bluenote61
I am thoroughly impressed with the TM Twin. 33 lbs puts it a little lighter than the tube Deluxe Reverb RI I had - which I very much liked. I spent three weeks A/B ing the two before deciding I liked the TM Twin better. I do think that multiple speakers add a bit of another dimension to the sound, which may be one reason I’ve been so smitten with the Bassman as well.
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