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Howdy, I'm a non-jazz guitarist that became a jazz bassist (out of my bands necessity) now making the foray into jazz guitar! I'm trying to dial in a good tone and I want something smooth that cuts through, driven or boosted in some way. I'm just not sure how to dial in an overdrive for such a tone, it always seems too hairy for a jazz setting. A really good example is the guitar in Games by Kris Berg:
I love the tone it has with the sax solis and during the guitar solo and any tips on how I could start to match that tone would be much appreciated!
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04-19-2024 10:57 PM
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The guitar tone is your classic Dumble ODS amp tone.
There are a number of ways to get that tone.
A real Dumble amp $100,000+
A Dumble clone amp $5,000+
A Dumble pedal in front of a Fender style tube amp. There a great number of these pedals out there for around $200-$300.
I own and recommend the Mad Professor Simble.
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Yep, pedal and tube amp will get you there!
Originally Posted by DRS
OP - welcome to the Forum!
You can spend hours over at TheGearPage sifting through threads on amps/pedals for this tone, so lots of options (too many!) -- happy hunting!
Enjoy the fabulous world of jazz guitar!
Peace,
Marc
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I agree! I have two dumble "clones" by amplified nation. The steel string singer is the smooth, clean leader of the dumble herd, I also have an overdrive reverb for rock. Before I got the steel string singer I found a superb Steel String Singer preamp pedal from Peace Hill FX. It has 2 tubes and really does a great job delivering the clean lead guitar tone. It works best going to the effects return of your amp, bypassing the amps preamp but also is very good just direct into a clean high headroom amp. My pedal sounds great through a fender Tonemaster Twin. They are pricey but I'm about to put mine up for sale at a very good price as I don't require it having gone for the 100W SSS. Check out the peace hill fx and PM me if interested. Originally Posted by DRS
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I’ve been very happy with the Wampler Dual Fusion.
This video does it some justice…to my ears : )
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A Fender Twin is the base for the Dumble circuits, more or less, so there is the cheaper option. An original silverface can be had from 800-1800 depending on condition and speakers. I don't play jazz but I use a Rockett Blue Note in front of a Twin as it has a very wide range of adjustment through lower OD tones.
Since we are talking Dumbles and Twins what we are really talking about is pedal steel guitar tones at the core. Big, clean, loud, usually paired with efficient speakers (read: loud) with everything having a very high degree of articulation. It's unforgiving in the sense that all your small picking errors and other mistakes will be readily apparent but rewarding in the sense that if you are able to keep that in check you would be hard pressed to find a more accurate representation of your playing or purer tone in the guitar sense. It's a demanding arrangement. If you get a squishy amp they won't be as articulate but are definitely going to be more forgiving. That's my experience. You have to ask yourself what you really want. No wrong choice either.
Twin or Dumble style amp with a good OD. JBL, EV, or some of the high watt Eminences for speakers. Currently I have a K120, Force 12, and just recently picked up some Eminence PF-350s that are still being broken in. I still have a couple D120's in boxes. Some of the steel players favor 15" speakers for taming the high end (I believe. Ask Skip Ellis) and I'm pretty sure you can buy baffles for a Twin to mount a single 15 in there. Lot's of experimenting possible with just guitar, amp, od box, speakers, tubes, pickups, picks. Have fun!!!
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Right on! I'm just practicing for a gig with a lap steel with hand levers through my Tonemaster Twin and used to play a pedal steel through a tube twin. One doesn't "need" a dumble amp for clean lead guitar but I have to say there are tones in them that the twin doesn't get, achieved through the fender mods that Dumble created. Originally Posted by DawgBone
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here's a demo of the Peace Hill SSS. The clean tones start at 3 minutes.
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Nice! And agreed about Dumbles and pedal steels! Sounds like you already got a good handle on this. I am a pretty big lap and pedal steel guitar fan. I'd really like to get something with at least 4 knee levers. I had an MSA semi classic but it only had a single E-F lever so I let it go cause I felt like I was kinda wasting my time not having something that has become industry standard with the basic Emmons setup. I'd really just like a double neck 12 for the house since I have a couple pretty good steel amps already. Truthfully I been trying to talk the kid into one so he can pay and I can play haha. He's got a great ear and a light touch (unlike me) and think he would make a good pedal steel player. He kinda caught the bug when I had my steels so it seems like it's in the cards. We'll see if he is gonna pay the piper on a decent steel and go for it. Originally Posted by Woodstove
Anyways, most of my amp and speaker choices have been steel guitar informed on some level because those guys are so serious about good, chiming clean tones and smoothness and it seems to work across the board quite often with just a six string too. Good luck hunting and please share which direction you went when you decide. I'm definitely interested to hear what you decide on considering that is part of your background.
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I had a dual-neck Sho-Bud that I played in the 1980's and housed in a closet since then. When I happened upon the Duesenberg lap steel with hand levers I traded the sho-bud for it. There was no way I was going to cart the pedal steel to gigs for the limited use I have for it, and the lap steel is just so easy and fun!! I'm just really starting to play it to cover pedal steel parts on my new album playing it out live. It's a wonderful instrument and does the job. The model is "split king" cause it has two splittable humbuckers that sound fantastic. Here she is.... Originally Posted by DawgBone
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Tube screamer and a telecaster.
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Big box RAT.
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What amp are you using (if any)? Originally Posted by JKBuckaroo
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I don't think you need to spend a fortune to get you into the neighborhood. A Electro Harmonix Soul Food is one place to start. Of course most of the sound comes from your hands so you need some familiarity with the techniques like the dash of Holdsworth legato.
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This tone has a lot less distortion than you might think. A J. Rockett Blue Note should get you where you need to go. But you will need to be pretty loud to smooth out some of the hair. Amp speaker will also make a difference. For a BF type Fender amp, I would recommend Celestion Neo Creambacks.
Also, at least in this clip, it sounds to me like the action on the guitar is low and is giving that sort of "clacky" tone when hit hard -- which may or may not be something you want.
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There are a lot of different pedals that will get you there, depending on your amp and guitar and what you like to work with. Besides the Dumble influenced pedals already mentioned, the families of pedals based on Klons and Bluesbreaker pedals will also do it. I've gotten close to that recorded tone with a Emma Reeza and I understand that to be RAT derived. The trick is keeping the gain lower than expected.
Anyway, the above is mainly an excuse to say thanks for making me aware of that album, and Kris Berg. I wasn't before your post, and those are good albums
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The Dumble clone pedal world is dark & stormy. I’ve tried many over the years, and none is plug-and-play guaranteed to give you the tone you want. I’ve tried, bought and sold at least a dozen, including Rowin Dumbler, Vertex SSS SRV, J Rockett Touch, J Rockett Dude, Danelectro Daddy-O, Wampler Tumnus, Wampler Euphoria, Hotone Grass, Nux, etc. Any of these under-$300 pedals comes close with the right guitar, pickups, amp and settings. But there’s no consistency to what works from pedal to pedal in this group.
Strangely enough, the active standard EMG in my LP comes the closest in most of these pedals. I used it yesterday on my weekly blues brunch gig with my current D pedal (a Smokin’ Amp Co Zensation) through a SF Vibrolux RI, and it’s as close as I’ve come to the tone the OP is seeking. But there’s a very narrow window of greatness in the settings. With the EMG-loaded LP, it has to be set with volume at 8 o’clock, tone at 9, gain at 11 and voice at 3. The Vibrolux bass has to be at 8 (!) and the treble at 3 or 4. The guitar’s tone pot needs to be between almost all the way down and halfway up, and its volume pot has to be between 1/3 and 2/3 up. Set this way, it’s smooth and creamy with amazing sustain, and it’s very sensitive to picking and touch. But if I need volume outside of the picking envelope, I have to either adjust the amp or use a volume pedal. Even tiny deviations on the effect’s pots will start making it fizzy or reducing the sustain.
The Alumitones in my Tele require completely different settings. The best I can get from this guitar is not as Dumbly as the sound with the LP - it has a little peach fuzz on it with less sustain. The SD HBs in my ESP do their best Dumble with the Zensation’s gain, tone and voice all a hair below noon and volume at 9 o’clock. The Benedetto B7 in my laminated archtop needs different settings from the solids, but it does get a surprisingly good sound that’s close to the LP but with less touch sensitivity. This all disappears when I switch the B7 to SC, which needs yet another group of settings but doesn’t come nearly as close to greatness at any settings.
The Peace Hill and other over-$500 pedals I’ve seen with at least one tube in them seem to do great Dumble with less fuss. I haven’t had a chance to use any of them on a gig, and I’m close enough to what I want with the Zensation to keep me from putting out even $400 on a used one just to see how good it is. But the simpler Dumble style effects I’ve tried have all been inconsistent from guitar to guitar and pickup to pickup. It takes a lot of tweaking and even more patience to get the best tone from them all.
I will urge anyone who wants this kind of tone to avoid the Vertex pedals. They do sound great with the right settings. But my SSS Supreme SRV edition developed a very loud noise after several weeks, and the company was impossible to deal with. The owner’s second and last communication to me after I sent him the videos he asked for was that this was normal electrical interference from something in the environment. I sent videos of the exact same noise made at different venues in multiple geographic locations, but he ignored this and refused to do anything for me. So I’d skip any Vertex product in your search. Fortunately, my credit card company eventually returned my money because the company refused to honor the warranty. So it sits on my shelf in its box while I try to figure out if I can fix it.
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You guys are a bunch of Dumble fanatics.
To me the tone is reminiscent of Larry Carlton especially on Kid Charlemagne and the other work he did for Steely Dan.
He used a Fender Deluxe and his 335 for the KC solo. Don’t you think the OP might get where he wants to go with a Fender tube amp or Tonemaster equivalent, and a semi hollow guitar? (Or even a Tele with the right pickup…)
By the way, nice bass on that clip above. I don’t listen to a lot of modern big band, but when I do I am usually amazed at how great it sounds.
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It was a 5e3 tweed Deluxe with no effects at all. That sound has been called the “amp about to explode” tone because the little tweed box was cranked to the max. I don’t think you can get that tone from any modern Fender amp except maybe a CS Champ. But there are many 5e3 kits and clones that will do it like Carlton’s SD setup. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
The difference between that and the sounds Carlton, Ford et al got from Boogies and Dumbles is the inherent sustain and smoothness from the amp itself. You can get serious sustain from a 5e3 if you play with the guitar right in front of it and use physical position to control feedback - but it’s not easy. Listen to Chris Cain and you’ll hear a similar tone from his Music Man 65 1x12 - but he’s LOUD.
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Yes, cranked amps are a breed in the TONE department (and sustain dept.) Chris Cain is great. He plays loud to drive the amp to get his sound.
I just bought a Tomsline Bluesy Vintage Blues OD and I love it. Saw a YT video, and loved the tone and character so I sprung $42 for it from Amazon. It performs wonderfully and transparently, just like the video!
So, at home at low volume, my amp sounds cranked. Smooth and gutsy. Can't wait to play it at a gig.
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