Playing live and getting the best sound from the guitar

[Doctor Jeff]

This is kind of an open-ended discussion--just throwing it out there for opinions.

For our recent show in a smallish club--50 in the audience--I took along my Gretsch G6117 reissue and Fishman Artist. I also brought along a Choka tremolo pedal and Tube Pilot Overdrive for a couple of songs, plus a volume pedal. I then plugged into the piano guy's soundsystem from the amp. Not sure of the exact system, but it was pretty sophisticated, with a small mixer board and tower speakers. Could have been the Bose L1. I will say his piano, the vocals and the sax sounded GREAT. Bass wasn't loud enough IMO. Guitar volume was OK, but tone was suboptimal.

Here are my observations: Overall I felt the sound was too compressed and lacked definition--kind of like with a wah pedal depressed halfway. I realize that the tone one gets at home even with the same amp and devices is very different from the club, especially going through a PA. A touch of tremolo sounds great at home, but live it tended to create kind of a wobbly echo that made the guitar notes seem tentative and even out of time. Same with amp reverb--not really needed when going through the PA, which has its own reverb.

Oh, and I inadvertently played most of the show with a bit of chorus on the amp, because I was having trouble with the 1st channel and switched to the 2nd, where chorus was switched on. Got a bit of the Pat Metheny sound by accident.

I play at home with the treble rolled off a bit (neck pickup volume down, "mud" switch on). However, I'm thinking I should not have taken off the top end. I really needed the brightness to compete with the other instruments.

I also realize that what I was hearing from the bandstand, what the audience was hearing and what was being recorded are 3 different things. Maybe it sounded GREAT to the audience? That's what they said LOL. (No recording available for right now, but will post a link if something is posted.)

My thought is ditch the trem pedal except for a couple of older RNB songs where it really fits. Don't turn down the treble on the guitar. I'm on the fence about plugging into the PA next time. If so, I will have to do a bit more intense soundcheck to make sure the sound is what I want.

Any advice from you stage vets out there?

[mr. beaumont]

Is that wall behind where you are playing ceramic tile? Could that have weir reflective properties and effect how you were hearing yourself?

[drbhrb]

It's very often that the sound and tone on stage is a bit weird, it usually does sound great out in the room though. I saw a video with Julian Lage once explaining a tip - if you have a loop pedal bring it with you so you can play a bit and then put your axe down and go hear the loop in the room.

I wouldn't double up on reverb though.

[Doctor Jeff]

Is that wall behind where you are playing ceramic tile? Could that have weir reflective properties and effect how you were hearing yourself?

LOL that is actually wedged-shaped wood pieces. Looks cool but I'm sure it affects the sound!

I thought it sounded "OK" through the amp. Through the PA it sounded different and hard to adjust to my liking. I thought it probably sounded OK to the audience though.

The space overall is small but not much to absorb the sound, except for people.

[Spook410]

Would guess the Gretsch to be on the twangy side. Acoustic amp will just replicate. Small venue so you probably heard your tone well enough. Might try the ES175 and run an amp/speaker model with the Fishman as an FRFR. Or just go with a nice Quilter if you like the Fender blackface sound but don't want the weight.

[Doctor Jeff]

Would guess the Gretsch to be on the twangy side. Acoustic amp will just replicate. Small venue so you probably heard your tone well enough. Might try the ES175 and run an amp/speaker model with the Fishman as an FRFR. Or just go with a nice Quilter if you like the Fender blackface sound but don't want the weight.

Well it can be twangy, but with the neck pickup and volume/tone dialed down, it isn't.

A 175 is always a good choice. Very predictable.

[Alter]

I try to position the amp so i can hear it, because unless properly miked it will sound worse through the PA. Also i talk to the sound guy if needed, usually in jazz they might cut the treble and bass a bit. I think one becomes better at it with experience but some rooms and situations will sound bad no matter what you do! These days, unless i know the situation i never bring an archtop, much safer to use a 335 semi hollow..

[AllanAllen]

Guitar, cable, amp. Done. I would suggest you get rid of that Fishman amp if you want breakup tone, instead of putting an overdrive ahead of it.

[rpjazzguitar]

Hard to say what's going on, but I'd offer this.

You mentioned tower speakers. Does this refer to a line array like the Bose L1?

It should be possible to make an L1 or similar line array sound good. Since you're going through a mixer I'd see how it's set. Cocked wah sound is a narrowed frequency range. You might get that if the mids are way higher than the other bands. I'd also double check whether the mixer is on mic vs line and what the input gain is, if it has all those controls. If you can find out what model it is, you can d/l the user manual and figure out if you're doing any wrong, or what might improve your sound.

If everybody else is in the line array, the room balance will be better, I think, if you're in it too. You can monitor with your amp if necessary.

When I've played thru a line array, I went from the XLR out in the back of my Little Jazz into the Line array's mixer. Worked great. I didn't need to, but I could have monitored from the LJ. And I liked having the LJ's controls at my side so I could EQ without having to look at the leader's phone app.

[Gilpy]

When playing with a band I always try to get my tone a little cleaner and brighter onstage. By the time it gets to audience land it will sound just right.
I would never use compression live. It sounds great coming out of the amp but gets lost in the overall mix. Use effects sparingy……except for an effect.
Keep in mind that most rooms will accentuate frequencies around 250 hz and adjust everything accordingly.

[SetPhasersToSwing]

I’d echo what @allenallen said about your amp. Admittedly I’ve not played through one but aren’t Fishman amps really specifically geared towards amplifying acoustic instruments?

Secondly, the Tube Pilot is quite a specific type of overdrive, I’d have used something more open sounding like a Klon or Timmy style circuit with a hollow/semi-hollow.

Finally, the DI coming from your amp probably needed a bit of treatment as well. Again, as it’s an acoustic amp, I expect the DI won’t have any cabinet emulation.

and one more thing…I’ve always been a bit meh on Bose for a large band. Great for singers, acoustic instruments but seem to struggle with complicated mixes.

[Spook410]

Side note: Jazz gig in Omaha, Nebraska. That's kind of cool. Way to go.

[alltunes]

I’m thinking the Fishman is not the best amp for this application and the line out flavored your tone.

A nice quality Deluxe style tube amp or a Princeton style amp would work great plus you have onboard tremolo. You could drape a Sennheiser e 609 over it to get it in the PA for a fuller sound and a somewhat accurate reproduction of what you are hearing from the amp. A little in the PA goes a long way.

But the Fishman is great for the uke….but I hate bringing too much equipment to a gig. Not so much from being lazy but to keep things simple. You could get a little preamp for the uke like a Red-Eye and go straight to the PA for uke tunes.

Or capo up high on your guitar to get a uke facsimile for that one tune.

As Allen said guitar>>cord>>amp can be a beautiful thing.

[pauln]

You can't determine how it sounds out in the audience from how it sounds to you playing on stage. If you adjust so it it sounds perfect to you on stage, the audience is likely being punished with excess high frequencies. Conversely, when it sounds right out in the audience, to you on stage it may very likely sound thud-like, thick, and dull without resonance.
Since the intelligibility of music is largely dependent on high frequencies, the apparent attenuation of the high end for the performer when the source is set right for the audience can be a distress while playing on stage. With the crispy treble lost to amp placement and masking by stage level, pitch discrimination, chord type recognition, and general harmonic perception is less clear and more difficult to extract.
Generally, in the "guitar, cable, big tube amp only" world, ("barefoot") there is no solution except to learn how to hear the dull tone (it takes a while), and have faith that the dull tone you hear sounds wonderful out front.
For those with pedals, mics, DI, mixers, PA, monitors, etc., the focus is still audience first, then whatever may be done to restore what's lost from being on stage if desired. When I play venues or events where all amps are mic'ed, I don't take a monitor - advantage of barefoot for a long time.

[RJVB]

This is kind of an open-ended discussion

More like a debate. While with an acoustic instrument you might still get some sort of consensus how it sounds best, how could you possibly hope for that with an electric instrument that doesn't exactly have a well-defined voice of its own but instead depends on a whole "post-processing" chain? Everyone will have their own preference for the settings of the various knobs and sliders, and that will only get worse the more of those controls you add to the chain.

IMHO, any decent acoustic guitar should be able to sound good to a small audience like you mentioned. I know this will depend on the other instruments present, and would agree that amplifying an acoustic guitar so that it becomes as loud as a big-arse piano or a wind section will give it an unnatural aspect (and thus not sound its best). An e-guitar doesn't have that problem ("unnatural" is part of its DNA, in a sense) but what sounds best for those probably depends on those other instruments...

I'm not really helping here, am I? Carry on

[Doctor Jeff]

Guitar, cable, amp. Done. I would suggest you get rid of that Fishman amp if you want breakup tone, instead of putting an overdrive ahead of it.

I’d echo what @allenallen said about your amp. Admittedly I’ve not played through one but aren’t Fishman amps really specifically geared towards amplifying acoustic instruments?

Secondly, the Tube Pilot is quite a specific type of overdrive, I’d have used something more open sounding like a Klon or Timmy style circuit with a hollow/semi-hollow.

Finally, the DI coming from your amp probably needed a bit of treatment as well. Again, as it’s an acoustic amp, I expect the DI won’t have any cabinet emulation.

and one more thing…I’ve always been a bit meh on Bose for a large band. Great for singers, acoustic instruments but seem to struggle with complicated mixes.

The Fishman is my go-to gigging amp because it is light, loud, has decent reverb and chorus, has a sweepable midrange filter to tame feedback/wolf tones, and rather flat frequency profile. Oh, and it has an output for a mixer, which none of my other amps have.

I haven’t found any type of guitar that didn’t sound good through it, except it doesn’t really overdrive. So if you want that you’re out of luck.

As far as the Tube Pilot, I used it specifically for 2 songs, Against All Odds and Open Arms. It worked fine for those applications. Otherwise, it wasn’t on for the show.

[Doctor Jeff]

Thanks for all the thoughts. On the recording, I don’t think it sounded bad, just not what I was expecting, as PaulN pointed out.

What I gather from your comments and thinking about it some more is the following:

—Simpler is better. Use effects sparingly or not at all. Anything like reverb will get magnified in a large space.

—Spend more time at rehearsal/sound check at the venue listening for the sound. Go out in the audience and listen if possible.

—For most playing keep the tone fairly neutral and/or bright on the guitar.

—Might take the 175 next time, but will probably continue to use the Fishman, unless I get something else.

[Spook410]

The Fishman is my go-to gigging amp .

You might try the Joyo American pedal (analog emulation of a blackface pre-amp, around $40 on Amazon) to warm things up a bit.

[mr quick]

I don't know that there's too much help in putting OD before an acoustic amp when the main problem is the speaker, which will give you those harsh tinny tones as they're intended to be more "neutral" than an electric guitar amplifier. I'm not saying it's an unusable sound (Pat Metheny did great with it!) but it's so distinct that you really have to be going for that kind of sound. Any magnetic pickup into an acoustic amp will give that distinctively shrill sound IMO.

Ditto for the speaker array. It's meant for fidelity, which suits "acoustic" instruments such as sax and piano. With an electric guitar you actually want a "worse" speaker to filter out the harsher tones. I would either use some sort of cabinet emulation in the loop or change the amplifier. If you want a plug-and-play rig to go into a speaker array, either go for a pedal like a Strymon Iridium, or if you're software-literate get a modeler.

[pcjazz]

I don't know that there's too much help in putting OD before an acoustic amp when the main problem is the speaker, which will give you those harsh tinny tones as they're intended to be more "neutral" than an electric guitar amplifier. I'm not saying it's an unusable sound (Pat Metheny did great with it!) but it's so distinct that you really have to be going for that kind of sound. Any magnetic pickup into an acoustic amp will give that distinctively shrill sound IMO.

Ditto for the speaker array. It's meant for fidelity, which suits "acoustic" instruments such as sax and piano. With an electric guitar you actually want a "worse" speaker to filter out the harsher tones. I would either use some sort of cabinet emulation in the loop or change the amplifier. If you want a plug-and-play rig to go into a speaker array, either go for a pedal like a Strymon Iridium, or if you're software-literate get a modeler.

Disagree. I have been playing rhythm guitar through Schertler David/Unico and Ultrasound acoustic amps for years with single coil magnetic-pickup-equipped archtops, sometimes straight in, sometimes with preamps, and have yet to experience “shrill” sound that can’t easily be tamed with the twist of a knob. I prefer single coils and acoustic amps for rhythm guitar precisely because they can [re]produce a bright crisp tone without becoming shrill or muddy.

[mr quick]

That's fine, we don't have to agree. I think if you're exclusively playing rhythm guitar then that'd be the application for which an acoustic amplifier would be least problematic.

[Hep To The Jive]

As already being pointed out by many electric guitar into an acoustic amp is not a recipe for a great sound, which I totally agree with. If crispy acoustic like rhythm sound is the target, why not just use an acoustic guitar? Sure this Grtesch is beautiful, but it loves a tube amp for sure!

Personally I had a lot of luck getting a good sound straight to PA with some pedals that have a speaker sim. No hassle, very clear and crispy sound, I have no problem with it. So yea, I'd totally ditch that Fishman sorry, and that's a start!

[John A.]

This is kind of an open-ended discussion--just throwing it out there for opinions.

For our recent show in a smallish club--50 in the audience--I took along my Gretsch G6117 reissue and Fishman Artist. I also brought along a Choka tremolo pedal and Tube Pilot Overdrive for a couple of songs, plus a volume pedal. I then plugged into the piano guy's soundsystem from the amp. Not sure of the exact system, but it was pretty sophisticated, with a small mixer board and tower speakers. Could have been the Bose L1. I will say his piano, the vocals and the sax sounded GREAT. Bass wasn't loud enough IMO. Guitar volume was OK, but tone was suboptimal.

Here are my observations: Overall I felt the sound was too compressed and lacked definition--kind of like with a wah pedal depressed halfway. I realize that the tone one gets at home even with the same amp and devices is very different from the club, especially going through a PA. A touch of tremolo sounds great at home, but live it tended to create kind of a wobbly echo that made the guitar notes seem tentative and even out of time. Same with amp reverb--not really needed when going through the PA, which has its own reverb.

The sound of an amp's line-out through a PA is a completely different thing from the amp's sound through its speaker (even in the case of something intended to be PA-like such as the Fishman. My first recommendation would be to not do this with an unfamiliar PA and and without sound-checking first. In a small space where you don't need the PA's extra volume, just use the amp (especially if you like the amp, as you say you do).

Oh, and I inadvertently played most of the show with a bit of chorus on the amp, because I was having trouble with the 1st channel and switched to the 2nd, where chorus was switched on. Got a bit of the Pat Metheny sound by accident.

Chorusing can definitely yield the sort of notch-y, compressed sound you describe. If you don't want chorus, don't turn on the chorus ([/noshitsherlockmode]

I play at home with the treble rolled off a bit (neck pickup volume down, "mud" switch on). However, I'm thinking I should not have taken off the top end. I really needed the brightness to compete with the other instruments.

I usually find better not to brighten up a guitar and to stay out of the way of the high-end sizzle of sax and drums, but this is really a trial and error thing

I also realize that what I was hearing from the bandstand, what the audience was hearing and what was being recorded are 3 different things. Maybe it sounded GREAT to the audience? That's what they said LOL. (No recording available for right now, but will post a link if something is posted.)

If the audience is knowledgeable and honest their comments about sound quality can be helpful, but that's a couple of very big ifs.

My thought is ditch the trem pedal except for a couple of older RNB songs where it really fits. Don't turn down the treble on the guitar. I'm on the fence about plugging into the PA next time. If so, I will have to do a bit more intense soundcheck to make sure the sound is what I want.

Any advice from you stage vets out there?

I think you've got it pretty much right there. I don't know the amp and PA in question, so can't really say whether plugging the amp into the PA is a good idea, except that IME it's usually not a good idea in a small space and without a dedicated sound person.

[Doctor Jeff]

Thanks for the opinions. You guys are making me think perhaps a Deluxe Reverb Tonemaster would be the cure for the playing live dilemma. It does have a line out, so if I wanted to plug into the PA...

I have a SCXD and Epiphone Valve Jr, both very nice-sounding, but potentially not with enough clean headroom in a reasonably sized space. And no line out.

The Fishman Artist is a nice amp though. Very flat response, but it has an attenuator for magnetic as opposed to piezo pickups, and a knob to cut the tweeter, which actually doesn't do much for a magnetic pickup, as opposed to piezo. Also on the plus side--it's loud, light and bulletproof. There's really no shrill sound if it's set up properly.

[rpjazzguitar]

I thought some more about it.

One of the Bose L1 models, at least, I think comes with a mixer that's similar to the Bose S1, which I owned briefly. There are three channels and I think instruments are supposed to go into the first two and the third is for background music, like between sets, or something like that.

The first two channels have two band EQ, but the treble control is centered at 6500 or 7500 and barely affects the sound of a guitar (unless my brand new S1 was defective).

In addition, there are "presets" which are labeled with the names of instruments and supposedly optimize the sound of that instrument. The question that occurs to me, is the 335 setting, for example, BB King or Larry Carleton? Bose does not provide documentation for what these presets actually do. I saw an opinion that they are 31 band EQ settings, but I have no idea if that's right. I called Bose. They don't offer a graph of the EQ for any of the presets.

Or, maybe you went into an external mixer first and then who knows what happened inside the L1, if that's what it was.

My regular pianist sets up an EV speaker on a pole. I tried going through it and hated the sound. It didn't offer EQ, or, at least not in a way that allowed me to adjust it on the gig. I didn't like the sound -- harsh or sterile or something. Some EV's have 7 band EQ, but you have to do it from the phone app, I think.

On most of my louder (but not super loud or big) gigs we do the sound reinforcement ourselves. The pianist brings bigger speakers, I bring a powered speaker and run it with a mixer (the vocal mic goes in along with the guitar) and maybe the Little Jazz. Complicated, but I like the resulting sound. The drummer insists he's loud enough without a mic and nobody complains.

But, on my very loudest repeat gig, the room is huge with high ceilings. There's a stage that you could do a play on, and a fancy PA with flown speakers and large sidefill monitors. The mixer is old fashioned. Meaning, everything is a knob and you can see how it's set, if you can figure out how to turn on the light above it (it's in a wing of the stage that's dark) and get in front of it to read the labels. Awkward setup.

Anyway, the singer is responsible for the PA and seems to know her stuff. I just try to get comfortable with what I'm hearing on stage and I abandon all hope or care about what the audience hears.

So, I bring the Little Jazz and point it at my head. Sometimes, the sidefill monitors are adequate, sometimes not (suggesting that the singer might not be getting a Grammy this year for live sound engineering (unfair joke, it's a complicated system that she didn't set up)), but I can hear the LJ and the rest of the band doesn't complain.

If the sidefills sound good, I could turn off the speaker in the LJ, but I can't recall doing that. Going through the LJ gives me three band EQ without having to go into the wing, figure out how to adjust which monitor mix and so forth -- all in the dark, or close.

I once played a wedding as a quartet. Guitar, bassist who sang and drums. The fourth person was a soundman who didn't play anything. Just looked after the sound. It wasn't even a loud gig. The geometry of where the band was and where the audience sat in relation to us was just weird. The soundman took care of that and earned his keep.

The moral being, I guess, that you can't worry about everything.