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Cantalope Island 1996 Gibson L4CES vs 2016 Yamaha SA2200, which do you like, comment below?
At first glance, it should be a no brainer, right? The Gibson L4CES has that sweet, L5-ish, velvety lilt and the Yamaha would seem to be outmatched for a jazzy take.
But alas, the yamaha has a really sweet vibe to it. Fusiony and jazzy at the same time. I've got d'addario .010 strings on it, thomastic .012 flats on the L4.
The yamaha makes me play a little different. It's really hard to say which one is better. I haven't been playing the yamaha as much so I'm not quite as comfortable on it as the L4.
What do you think?
#sheetsofsound #halfdiminished #min7b5
#jazzguitarlessons #guitarlessons
#jazzguitar #modernjazzguitar #jazzguitarriffs
#GibsonArchtops #YamahaGuitars #yamahasa2200 #altereddominant
#halfdiminished
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04-14-2024 11:47 AM
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They sound the exact same to me almost at least on first run. The fact is a different guitar and you do play different even if they are pretty close. These two guitars are quite far apart in how they are held on your body and the neck, ect. I could almost sense your fingering was different watching you play. Could be one is easier to play like a typewriter or the string gauge. As far as sound though both cut it fine. Almost makes a purist archtop player like me cringe that I am wasting a lot of time and energy in trying different ones.
One point is I play for the most part a build in ces guitar different than a floating pickup. When I play a Les Paul it all goes out the window that is complete different animal and takes me a long time to get comfortable. I listen again and just going back and forth very little diffence.
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Jack, your technique is not from this world. However, for a pedestrian listener like myself, those fast runs make any jazz guitar sound more or less the same. Only the few opening bars seem to reveal a slight L-4 "fruitiness" over the SA. Elusive, not conclusive. Knowing you're a busy PU swapper, does the SA have its originals? I changed mine to Seymour Duncans (Jazz for neck, JB for bridge) years ago, for a smoother jazz tone. Wish I still had that guitar.
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They're remarkably similar, to me ultimately not all that surprising. If I listen very closely, I can hear a little more sustain and high end detail in the L4 and a little more mids in the Yamaha, but with eyes closed it's not obvious where one begins and the other ends. I have had similar experiences with my semi-hollow and archtop. With older recordings where I forgot which I played, I have to listen a few times before I'm sure which guitar it is. Even though the experience of playing the two is very different, and they're strung differently, my idea (and imagine yours) of a "jazz sound" is pretty well set, and I try to get that sound in whatever guitar I'm playing. It turns out that's not as difficult as some make it out to be. Also, one definitely hears the player more than the instrument much of the time.
Originally Posted by jzucker
I often comment that I think pretty much any guitar with a neck pickup is a "jazz guitar," and this sort of demo is exhibit A.
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Splitting hairs, but I slightly prefer the L4. Not sure if I'd call it fruitier. Maybe a bit meatier? More noticeable to me in the higher registers. Like newer and older strings. That kind of thing. I'd be happy to use whichever felt most comfortable.
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Man, that opening natural 7 over the Fm7 was sour.
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^ In a good way. I dig it. I guess I like sour.
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The L4 seems a bit rounder on the low notes. They're both great.
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They sound close but they would sound even closer with the same strings. I hear the dullness of the flat strings in the L4 recording. I think L4 would sound better with rounds but it's a personal opinion.
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It isn't even close to me. The L4 by a mile.
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rounds on that axe would be a feedback machine i think...I'm at the point where I'd love to switch to rounds but the feedback is a dealbreaker. Originally Posted by Tal_175
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If melodic minor (maj7) on a minor chord is considered a sour note, I guess we need to go all the way back to 1933 harmony... Originally Posted by ccroft
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Straight minor or m6 is one thing; that's an Fm7 in Cantaloupe. Originally Posted by jzucker
Won't stop me from checking out your other stuff though, and I will humbly express my gratitude if it works out for me.
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Yamaha for me. The L4 is a more dry sound. I think the thinner strings let you get some subtle pitch modulation happening.
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It doesn't matter that it's an Fm7. It sounds good. I'm sorry it sounds sour to you but I love it and it's a historically common tone to play over the Fm7 chord. Originally Posted by Peter C
I studied with Pat Martino and Joe Pass and they both use a ton of melodic minor on a regular minor 7 chord.
This sound has been common in jazz for almost 80 years! You might check out the dodecaphonics page I have at jack zucker - Dodecaphonics which explains the thinking on playing outside the harmony although in this case, the E natural is not outside the harmony. Strictly speaking, it's a slight departure into C7.
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A friend of mine had this to say about the E natural over the Fm7 and superimposing chords in general. I think it's well stated.
Music is forward movement and not simply a vertical cross-section. The E you play sounds great alone, but even better because of the phrase that follows it.
Similarly, some people say you can’t superimpose chords, because they’re looking at the notes of the chord, and not enough at the movement and direction of the chord changes.
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It’s easy to “justify” the E natural on multiple grounds, e.g, using the melodic minor scale to build a melody, superimposing V7 tonality over i7, chromaticism as a device, tension/resloution. It doesn’t clash with the chord (at least not to my senses) because it’s in a different register. Originally Posted by Peter C
But even if it did, clashing on purpose is valid, too, especially given the way the rest of the phrase goes. I hear it as a quote of Harlem Nocturne, FWIW. Anyway, sour is not a word that comes to mind for me in this context.
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His backing track is a vamp rather than a conventional chord progression, which allows much more freedom re: one's choice of notes - like playing over a modal progression. If he leaned on the maj. 7th over an m7 chord for a few beats as he did over the vamp, don't think many would say it worked. Originally Posted by John A.
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Anyway, that was just a spontaneous, honest comment like I would make in a club to a friend, then move on. If anyone else digs it, I can deal with that. No "reasons" are necessary, lol. The last time I personally played over this I remember things got pretty raucous with just a touch of side-stepping and chromatics, certainly not to everyone's taste, which is fine.
Anyone lucky enough to have studied with Pat is truly blessed. I would be very interested to hear an example of him using melodic minor on a regular minor 7 chord - passing notes excluded!
Lastly, the two guitars sounded close enough so that it doesn't "matter", JMO. Cheers
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Sometimes my ears displace notes an octave down or up, but I think Jack's E and the comping's Eb are exactly in the same register, but I may be wrong. That doesn't make it sour, of course. Originally Posted by John A.
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And also, on the original version you can hear Hubbard play a long non-consonant B (#4) on the Fm7 chord, on the start of his second chorus of solo (1:50). Hard to call that sour.
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talk about thread drift
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Here, on 2:55 Hubbard clearly plays a natural E over Fm. Again, not very sour. And there's plenty of natural Bs too and other "outside" notes during his whole solo. Herbie Hancock also plays a natural E over Fm7 on the 6:51 mark and keeps going with little to no consonant notes. Oh, and this was in 1985 btw...
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Originally Posted by jzucker
Yes, but some people think that sound is annoying, and probably have thought it annoying for 80 years.
I find hanging on E over F minor, tedious sounding. I like that sound as a passing tone, but so what!
It is a matter of personal tastes in art. If you like that sound, then you play it.
There is nothing to explain or research.
But, you know, I dislike what is considered modern jazz guitar. Masses of high speed notes with all 12 tones played over every chord.
Haha!
I should no longer read this forum. That's it!
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Coltrane did it on Mr PC Originally Posted by Peter C
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