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I know it’s an age old question.. is it worth the additional cost? Do we really think most of the instruments we invest in are true investments, will they be worth more long-term?
Does it really matter if it brings us a form of happiness and learning?
So, I’ve been going back and forth on the purchase of my first jazz guitar, and look to the forum of all of you exceptional and talented individuals to offer some insight. A new Benedetto Bravo Deluxe $7200(US) or WesMo Crimson $9000(US)…
- both great instruments!
As a new member to the forum, I really appreciate your insight.
thank you!
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04-13-2024 11:31 PM
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I don't think anyone's advice from this group can do you any good at all.
You say this is your first "jazz" guitar, and I infer that you already know how to play, and therefore that you have some opinions on what you like in a guitar. Therefore you should select one based on how you feel when playing it. I recognize that finding either of these guitars to audition will be a challenge. Particularly for the amount of money that you're proposing to spend, you need to find a guitar you like, and the only way to really do that is to do what it takes to find one of each to play before deciding. (And even then, individual guitars of a type can't really be assumed to be typical of the type - there's a fair amount of individual variation.)
But unless you're just looking for a wall hanging, others' advice can't help you here. I'd suggest you dig around and find somebody who owns these and travel to visit them to audition their guitars. I think that's the closest you'll get to being able to find out what you like before you buy.Last edited by dconeill; 04-14-2024 at 11:39 AM.
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These guitars are quite different so it's hard to give any advice without knowing something about your playing style, preferences and situations. I have no L-5 experience but haven't bonded with the Gibson Tal Farlow I rescued from wrong hands a couple of years ago. I own a Benedetto Bravo since 2008, but it gets a lot less air time than my ES-175 1959 VOS. In fact, I mostly play my budget Epis an Ibanezes. It's not a question of size or scale length: I'm perfectly happy with my 1999 Epi Emperor Regent. You have to ask yourself: will your first jazz guitar be a player or an investment. If the latter (as your price range suggests), I'd have a look at how the Savannah-made Benedettos fare on the used market. The Gibson brand commands a high resale value. Having said this, the Bravo Deluxe is everything a gigging jazz pro needs: superb build quality, great tone, light and not too feedback-prone. However, the factory price is steep for a laminate instrument. Used prices tend to be in the 4-5K region.
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@McG,
You stated in an earlier post you had the Benedetto on order, expected to arrive in March ... Did something happen to that order??
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Apples and oranges.
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I’ve been playing for 10 yrs. and within the last 2 yrs. caught the jazz bug. I think the advice to play and understand the art of comprise- is well received.
I have on order the Benny Bravo, soon to be born, during that time I had a chance to play a 2002 WML-5, needless to say it was a sweet sound and play. If there was a perfect world I’d have both, (my wife feels differently, though the dog supports my interests)
As the market evolves the prices go up on the WMs. Question.. historically have you witnessed a decline and a limited availability of quality instruments? That seems to be the driver, as I’m feeling I might miss the boat on owning one..and the experience of playing one of the best.
sorry to bore you with my rant, it’s good therapy to write and ask questions to those that might be suffering from the same afflictions.
thank you guys!
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Those are two very different sounding guitars. Investment? Based on past performance, the Gibson may be a better bet, but as in all things, past performance is no guarantee of future performance.
I have a Gibson L-5 WESMO and can report that it feeds back WAY earlier than my laminate archtops (Gibson ES-175's). And I have owned a few guitars with Benedetto pickups and I did not like them. Others love them, so YMMV.
A friend of mine who is a professional guitarist in San Francisco owned a few Bravos (he may still be on the Benedetto website, though I believe he sold his last Bravo) and today he plays Gibson guitars on most of his gigs.
FWIW, I also have a Gibson L-5CES. The CES feeds back way less than the WESMO and in some very dark rooms, I have found that blending a little of the bridge pickup has been a BIG help in getting a proper tone. And I have three ES-175's which see way more gig time than either of my L-5's. The laminate construction, shorter scale and lower value all contribute to that. If I was only a living room player, the L-5 might be the winner, but just barely. Doing chord melody solo stuff, it is hard to beat the velvety tone of a carved spruce top.
If I were you, I would also consider a Campellone. Mark's guitars can be had for less than the Gibsons on the used market and have that L-5 vibe.
HTH
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Thanks Swing!
acoustically do you feel the WM is a better play for practice and noodling etc..? Does the CES provide more variety to your tone and music? (They too have gotten pricy$)
So far I’m limited to living room engagements-my wife and biggest fan my dog…feedback is not so much an issue. What’s your choice in amps?
thank you!
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I have 3 wesmos and had a ces. For my taste I preferred the Wes mo. It has a brighter and slightly snappier sound. I am afraid to generalize since I haven’t played that many CES but the wesmos I have have a richer midrange than the CES. The CES has a fatter tone, which is considered by many to be the classic L5 tone.
As for feedback, I think it SS is right that a single pickup one will be more susceptible but it comes down to the player and rig. I’ve played my Wes with an 8 piece band and annoyingly loud drummer with no feedback issues. I owe this to a heavier right hand attack, which helps keep the amp volume low.
Never played a Benedetto. Have never been tempted. Gibson is classic and has the sound and IMO nothing that needs remediation.
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The WESMO is a more acoustic instrument for sure (one less pickup and one less brace means more acoustic vibration it seems). While the CES has more tonal variety, if I was only playing at home, the WESMO would probably win out as it sounds better without an amp (more acoustic volume). And speaking of amps, IMO, Henriksen makes the best amps for jazz guitar today. If my only venue was my living room, their Blu 10 would be the amp I would pair with a Gibson L-5 WESMO.
Originally Posted by McGregor
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There is so much to unpack here and I would be surprised if you hadn't already heard most of the points that I would make. I have no way of understanding or providing input into the economic question; when I buy a guitar, it's because I'm going to keep it and play it. I have one guitar for more than 40 years and another one that I've owned for nearly 40 years. I have others that I've had for 15 or 20 years. I just bought a Gibson ES-175. I rarely get rid of a guitar. As a result, I have little concern about how a guitar holds its resale value.
In terms of making the choice, I would suggest thinking about what you want to sound like. Whose guitar sound moves you? if you love Jim Hall, for example, neither of those instruments is really going to get you towards that sound; if you love Peter Bernstein, on the other hand, both of those guitars might be quite apropos. If you love Ed Bickert or John Abercrombie, on the other hand, you'll need to go in a very different direction than hollowbody archtop guitars.
I can speak from some experience here. I love the Jim Hall style sound and if I had my druthers, that's what I'd like to sound like (unfortunately, I lack the talent to actually do so). My first electric guitar was an Ibanez GB10, which is pretty far removed from Jim Hall's tone (although I've learned a lot about getting a wide range of sounds out of that guitar over the 38 years I've owned it). My first full size archtop guitar was a Benedetto style made by Matt Cushman; sounds nothing like Jim Hall and I've gone through seven different pickups on the guitar to find a sound that I really like. I have been frustrated for years, actually, trying to find that sound with that guitar and it was listening to Peter Bernstein that taught me the foolishness of that. Oddly enough, buying the ES-175 has given me a greater appreciation of the sound of my Cushman because they are so distinctly different.
One question that has not been asked is whether you are primarily interested in amplified versus acoustic tone, because the compromise here is that the design features that result in good amplified tone tend to result in poor acoustic tone and vice versa. My Cushman has radically superior acoustic tone to basically all my other guitars, but the ES-175 sounds better plugged into an amp.
For the amount of money you are talking about spending, I would recommend making a road trip to a dealer that would have a number of these kinds of instruments to play and compare. Getting your hands and ears on a range of instruments right next to each other is really the best way to do this, although it's really hard in most places because it is such a specialized and limited market. George Gruhn Guitars in Nashville, for example, would probably be worth a trip. And don't be surprised if what you decide you really want is a Gibson ES-175.
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Omp, what yrs are your WMs, and do you feel that there’s any quality variations through the years?
Does Gibson’s “Crimson” builds carry more value than a standard build? Perception is reality, they say..
Thanks!
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I have owned a couple of Guild-Benedettos and have played many others. While I pretty much agree that Gibson has "the sound", I have to say that the Benedettos that I have played that were built by Bob Benedetto himself, were very special guitars. That said, I will keep playing my Gibson archtops until the end. They inspire my playing. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
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I would take a Wes L5 or a L5CES over a Benedetto on any day of the week. I played Benedetto's and many like them, but I just have never been drawn to play them or bond. The closes thing I have to what you ask is my 2005 Super 400ces. To me it is the perfect jazz guitar for playing with an amp at least in most respects. I think it is bit darker and lush compared to an L5 but really not huge differences.
As to the investment end that I think really only means resale, not investment. Guitars are really not an investment as such, just buy stock or doing almost anything else is better than putting money in guitars. The only investment in guitars is someone who happens to buy a guitar at way less than the value and then sells. You only profit when you sell. For me these days I plan and buy with the "out clause." This is the concept that I might want to sell the guitar down the road within a reasonable time frame, or my heirs will not have huge problems selling them when the Lord decides the exit.
Then as SS says a Campellone will fit the bill too and that might be a great option. The trick is to find a guitar that is fun to play. I cannot explain that concept it is just something I understand.
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2001, 2007, 2008. Two of them have the “investors choice” Hutchins sticker but they’re all equally great. Originally Posted by McGregor
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The collective wisdom and experience of long-time Forum members is immense (and I'm excluding myself, a hopeless amateur, from that bunch). Most love archtops more than wives and dogs, and know them in and out. However, experience and wisdom come with age. I'm 77 and own several archtops, including two Gibsons and a Benedetto. Although my two sons are much better musicians, neither is interested in jazz guitars. I'm afraid that baby boomers, once gone, will leave a glut of vintage archtops to a non-discerning posteriority. That Gibson no longer makes archtops tells you a lot. At the same time, there's more well-trained and knowledgeable luthiers today than ever before. Mark Campellone in USA and several builders in Europe undercut used Gibson prices, driven up by Covid. I wouldn't be too worried about the availability of quality instruments in the future. Originally Posted by McGregor
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16” x2&12” depth vs 17” X 3&1/8” depth. Which is more comfortable is also way important as well. I own a Benedetto Bambino and love the smaller size as well as it being a laminate construction. Super feedback resistant!
All that said for me the Wes Mo is the clear choice!
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I have ownership experience with both. I’ll add a detailed write up this evening. They’re both great. I’ll just give you the fine details in comparison.
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All of the above. Two fine instruments. Two very different voices. Deep-down inside you probably know already. Personally I’d go for the Benedetto simply because so many people are playing Gibson. Nothing against Gibson at all. But it’s like going into country with a Tele.
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This is one of the amusing and wonderful aspects of the forum; ......."just when I thought I was out, they drag me back in..." from Godfather III. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
I wouldn't buy a Savannah or Fender laminated Bravo as investment. they can be wonderful working guitars, however the "investment" grade Benedettos are the instruments that Bob built on his own. I own one, gig with it regularly, I'm very content with it.
$9K for a first Jazz guitar hoping to retain it's value? Even though I'm firmly in the Benedetto camp, buy the Wes.
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Gibson Wes Mo will probably increase in value over time if past trends are anything to go by. I don’t know anything about Bene values.
another point regarding L5 prices is that Gibson are going to start building the L5 again.
Not clear when, but its going to be a 57 historic reissue.
no idea how much it will cost or what effect that will have on second hand values long term
I have no idea if/when they will remake the Wes mo which has different construction from an L5 CES.
the Wes Mo has more of an acoustic quality (relatively speaking) than the L5 CES- wes mo is brighter too.
the Crimson guitars I have encountered have all been excellent, but no better or worse than Hutch era archtops.
As far as I am aware, “Crimson”did not mean the creme de la creme from within a larger pool of Gibson archtops built at the Nashville custom shop, but rather was just a branding applied to the archtop builders work within the Nashville custom shop as a whole and therefore all archtops coming out of the Nashville CS during the period the Crimson designation was used, were Crimson’s and you in fact couldn’t buy a non Crimson archtop (es 175 was different because it was built at the now closed Memphis plant- so not Crimson- but all the carved top archtops- Super 400 and the L5’s- Citation etc were built at Nashville).
If you are dropping serious dosh for an archtop and want a Gibson consider a Super 400 CES - it can do it all.
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Thanks C!
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Benedetto design will be more of an acoustic guitar. Gibson will sound like an electric guitar though the Wes model maybe less so. I have a lot of acoustic archtops and play them every day. I like them a lot. I also have a couple of Gibson L5's and a ES175 (don't have a Wes).
If you want to sell any time soon.. the Gibson hands down. It's been that way for decades.
If you want a traditional jazz sound, the Gibson.
If you are going to pretty much play plugged in all the time, the Gibson.
If you know you are looking specifically for a very modern acoustic archtop sound in this price range, a used Trenier.
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Thanks Spook!
Do you think the prices will just keep going up? Fair market value for a WesMo based on year and coloration range from $7,500 to $11K… in 3 yrs will they be closer to $15K?….Ive seen CESs going for 18K…
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Hmmm. And what's wrong with that? Originally Posted by Oscar67
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